Pursuit predation - Humans are amazing

terley

terley

terley

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I thought this may be an interesting discussion and maybe an incentive to work harder at the gym going forward.

Pursuit predation or persistence hunting is :

Pursuit predation is a form of predation in which predators give chase to fleeing prey. The chase can be initiated either by the predator or by the prey, should the prey be alerted to a predator's presence and attempt to flee before the predator gives chase. The chase ends with either the predator capturing and consuming the prey, effectively diminishing the prey's fitness, or with the prey escaping the predator's hunt, thus maintaining the prey's overall fitness, but leaving both prey and predator with metabolic losses. Pursuit predation is typically observed in carnivorous species within the kingdom Animalia, with some iconic examples being cheetahs, lions, and wolves.
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It is a great example of just how incredible humans are, David Attenborough covered it in a documentary some years back:


We as humans are by far the best runners in the animal kingdom in terms of distance running. It is humbling to see such perfection in a human being when moulded for nothing but survival like the man in the video.

Just imagining the idea of pursuit predation from the prey's perspective.. it can only be likened to some kind of horror movie like It Follows or Jason Voorhees from Friday the 13th, terrifying persistence and eventual death.

Some of the things human beings are capable of are just staggering, such as our absurdly high injury recovery rate compared to other animals, we can ignore primitive fear impulses by using logic and understanding to achieve amazing feats, unlike other creatures who steer clear of toxic and crazy spicy vegetation.. we season our pizzas with it.

There are countless examples of why we are amazing creatures, but i thought the whole pursuit thing was great.
 
I thought that was called persistence hunting. That's what it was called when I first read about it many years ago.

terley said:
[..] We as humans are by far the best runners in the animal kingdom in terms of distance running. [..]
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Not entirely true:

1)Modern riding horses can outperform humans in distance running outside of hot environments, although that's only true because humans have used evolution as a tool to make them that way.

2) Many canid species can outperform humans in distance running outside of hot environments, some without humans having changed them and some with human changes but not necessarily deliberate.

Overall, the runaway (every pun intended!) winner in distance running is sled dogs due to a metabolic trait apparently unique in mammals - they don't need to use glycogen to digest food so they can't run out of it. They never "hit the wall", so they can maintain a brisk run for as long as they are awake and have drunk and eaten enough and they can do that all day every day if it's not hot enough to make them overheat.

In a hot environment, though, a human in top condition would win against any animal because we can shed heat much more effectively.

Related possibly interesting fact - the restriction on a cheetah's sprinting is heat, not fatigue. At top speed, they overheat extremely quickly.
 
The 21st century urban equivalent of pursuit predation - yellow label hunters. Those women are dangerous.
 
Angilion said:
I thought that was called persistence hunting. That's what it was called when I first read about it many years ago.



Not entirely true:

1)Modern riding horses can outperform humans in distance running outside of hot environments, although that's only true because humans have used evolution as a tool to make them that way.

2) Many canid species can outperform humans in distance running outside of hot environments, some without humans having changed them and some with human changes but not necessarily deliberate.

Overall, the runaway (every pun intended!) winner in distance running is sled dogs due to a metabolic trait apparently unique in mammals - they don't need to use glycogen to digest food so they can't run out of it. They never "hit the wall", so they can maintain a brisk run for as long as they are awake and have drunk and eaten enough and they can do that all day every day if it's not hot enough to make them overheat.

In a hot environment, though, a human in top condition would win against any animal because we can shed heat much more effectively.

Related possibly interesting fact - the restriction on a cheetah's sprinting is heat, not fatigue. At top speed, they overheat extremely quickly.
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Depending on the exact terrain and environment, humans can sometimes outrun horses. The first ultramarathon was formed when a competitor of the Western States 100 mile horse race completed most of it on foot when his horse got lame. these days, The best humans runners are faster than the winning horses, usually (races aren't at same time and not quite the same course). Also interesting that the drop out rate of horses and humans at the western states is pretty similar, again if anything humans do better. Overall pretty evenly matched.
As you say in colder conditions, and on a flatter smoother trail horses will win out, hotter conditions or mountainous environments and humans will win.


Dogs and wolves are pretty amazing. Still it is remarkable that in the whole animal kingdom Humans are at the least in the top 3. We are born to run, and run far.
 
This also makes me laugh when you get those gym rats that talking about "training & eating like a predator and not prey". Well, that means long endurance running, minimizing excess muscle mass, and eating a diet high in carbohydrates and vegetables, with most protein coming from pulses, nuts and seeds with meat being a rarity after a successful hunt. Most hunts aren't successful, so after 8 hours of pursuit you get to go home and eat some yams with a handful of beans thrown in.
 
D.P. said:
This also makes me laugh when you get those gym rats that talking about "training & eating like a predator and not prey". Well, that means long endurance running, minimizing excess muscle mass, and eating a diet high in carbohydrates and vegetables, with most protein coming from pulses, nuts and seeds with meat being a rarity after a successful hunt. Most hunts aren't successful, so after 8 hours of pursuit you get to go home and eat some yams with a handful of beans thrown in.
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It's funny but you made me think of an old colleague of mine who is a pro cycling coach. He's trained some of the best cyclists in the country although not the top ones. I remember seeing him talking to a group of teens and the subject of diet came up. They were all talking about high protein, high carb diets and what was best etc. His answer - vegetables. When he got his students to increase their vegetable intake their performance went up.
 
Dis86 said:
It's funny but you made me think of an old colleague of mine who is a pro cycling coach. He's trained some of the best cyclists in the country although not the top ones. I remember seeing him talking to a group of teens and the subject of diet came up. They were all talking about high protein, high carb diets and what was best etc. His answer - vegetables. When he got his students to increase their vegetable intake their performance went up.
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Many of the top runners, cyclists and triathletes are vegetarian or vegan. You need massive amounts of carbs for this kind of training, the pros will max out at around 80-90% carbs in their diet. Although this will involve pasat/potatoes etc, it is undoubtedly better to eat more vegetables that contains more vitamins and minerals, more fiber and small amounts of protein.
 
Angilion said:
2) Many canid species can outperform humans in distance running outside of hot environments, some without humans having changed them and some with human changes but not necessarily deliberate.
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Indeed - Wolves apparently cover up to 60 miles in one night just loping along at a steady pace.
Even the Endurance march on SAS Selection is only 40 miles and you get 20 hours to do it.

D.P. said:
Most hunts aren't successful, so after 8 hours of pursuit you get to go home and eat some yams with a handful of beans thrown in.
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This is why we evolved things like brains and thumbs, so we can outsmart and trap our prey.
It began with simple weapons, progressed to bows and spears, and now at the pinnacle of evolution with the Just Eat smartphone app!! :D
 
To think this guy runs all day for a mediocre meal. I have a hard time finding motivation sometimes to pop down to the local ASDA.

Edit: Also knew it was going to be this video by the title. It is fascinating.
 
IRC (can't watch the video at work), then part of the success of this hunting is that we can fairly easily modulate the speed of our running by changing stride length, whilst quadrupeds have very varied running styles for different speeds. So what you do is set your running pace to about half way between two different running styles of the prey animal, and they are forced to regularly change between gaits, which tires them out much more quickly.

Its an impressive skill physically and mentally.
 
Tuppy_Glossop said:
Ostriches would finish a marathon in 45 mins. If you could get them to do one.
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Tuppy_Glossop said:
Longhorn Antelopes too, appaz.
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If you took their max speed and assumed they could hold that for a marathon. That is as flawed as saying a 100m runner could finish a marathon in an hour. In particular the African hunters will frequently use pursuit predation on antelope and out run them.


The point is, humans have a much higher endurance than almost any animal, and much better mechanisms to cope with over heating,
 
Judgeneo said:
IRC (can't watch the video at work), then part of the success of this hunting is that we can fairly easily modulate the speed of our running by changing stride length, whilst quadrupeds have very varied running styles for different speeds. So what you do is set your running pace to about half way between two different running styles of the prey animal, and they are forced to regularly change between gaits, which tires them out much more quickly.

Its an impressive skill physically and mentally.
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Not really true at all. Quadrupeds do have distinct gaits, so there is a big difference between a walk and a faster run for them. However, switching between gaits is not inefficient at all. In fact it is very efficient. Humans do the same, adding walking stretches to runs to reduce overall metabolic costs. In your scenario the animal could in theory just go at a fast pace for a long time to evade, and then slow down for a decent length. It has been well shown that a horse for example can efficiently alternate between run and walk gaits and for an endurance horse race this ability is required.

The Human wins due to endurance and ability to regulate temperatures better. Most mammals just get too fatigued and collapse form severe exhaustion.
 
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