Quality of emergency service driving

lordrobs

lordrobs

lordrobs

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After being stuck in the aftermarth of a pile up today it got me thinking about the training and skill of the various emergency services when on the scene to an accident. I have no idea if they go through the same basic training but I have noticed quite a variation in the way they get to the scene of an incident and how they treat other road users.

Heres my own observations of the emergency services, obviously all imo and only from what I have seen myself:

Police Traffic cars- Very skillfull drivers. Seem to make good progress even through dense traffic with the minimum of risk. Extremely precise in their driving. Very courtious to other drivers that get out of the way and suprisingly patient with those that don't. Seem to have the best understanding of the road and other road users. Obviously of everyone meantioned they are behind the wheel of the most capable vehicles so that helps.

Police Panda cars- less consistant in their driving than the traffic cops but still of a very good overall standard. Don't take unnecessary risks etc.

Ambulance- obviously this depends on if they've got someone in the back or not but imo very capable drivers. They drive quite conservatively compared to the police but a lot of that must be to do with the vehicle they are in. Sometimes I think they are slightly over cautious, for example coming up to traffic lights, everybody has seen the ambulance and stopped, they could have gone on the wrong sde of the road for a few seconds and got through the lights in 10 seconds but instead they battled through the traffic taking much longer. Then again I don't claim to be an expert on this type of driving. They are also very courtious to other drivers.

Finally the fire brigade, and this is what made me start this thread in the first place. Now no offence to anyone that works in the service and this is all in my opinion as a non-professional driver. Now I understand that the fire brigade have the worst vehicles to try and get to the scene of an accident in but the style in which they drive seems completely different. Whereas the other services try to pick their way through traffic, using those who have seen them and get out of their way to their advantage and being wary of those that havent the fire brigade seem to use the following approach- Steam up to the stationary traffic, honk on horn a few times, brake at last second leaving yourself inches from the car infront, lean on the horn until they mount the curb, pull into a side road etc.

All this seems to do is panic other road users and the time it takes them to get through traffic shows this. I was lucky today manageing to pull into the other lane in plenty of time but then they steam on into solid traffic and do what I described above. They get so close to the car infront that if hey are not on the ball and the person beside them is they can't use the space made from them because they've got too close to manouvre round them. In this situation again the other side of the traffic island was clear and that would have been the quikest option, as it was cars were scattered everywhere by the time they had honked their way through- on the traffic island, on the curb, on the wrong side of the road, half up the roundabout etc.


As I say I'm no expert so if you think I'm wrong in what I say please feel free to say so.

Anyway thats just my views but I'd be keen to hear yours and your experiences to see if they differ from mine.
 
A couple of years ago I was driving a 1.2 hire Polo along a rather twisty B road when a police Ford Focus estate blasted past me in the opposite direction easily doing 80mph+. I glanced in my rear view mirror to see him lose the back on a tight bend, drift for a good few metres then catch it with apparently expert precision and a minimum of fuss. Probably more luck than judgement and IMO more reckless than necessary on a public road but it certainly impressed me at the time ;).
 
lordrobs said:
Police Panda cars- less consistant in their driving than the traffic cops but still of a very good overall standard. Don't take unnecessary risks etc.
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Around here they seem to speed/dont indicate/have more lights out, than most normal road users. Ive almost been hit by cop cars pulling out of junctions without looking on at least 3 occasions, I live in a fairly rough area and see cops quite a lot, ive seen the wheel spin away and all sorts.

Traffic cops are generally spot on though.
 
Ordinary beat coppers usually do get driver training before they can use lights and sirens, but it's a far cry from the weeks of training involved with patrol car class one drivers. I understand that some forces allow panda drivers to drive without extra training, but in theory they aren't supposed to answer emergency calls (some forces even disable the lights and sirens to stop them). However, in the real world they probably do.


M
 
i actually feel that the fire brigade are the most skillful drivers. they have to drive a huge heavy truck at speed through traffic. it is easier for police cars as they are small manouverable vehicles.

daven
 
Before you reply to my post lordrobs:-

  • Read through this carefully
  • Please understand that I am not "jumping on the defensive" and having a "go" at your comments
  • I'm simply presenting some facts and attempting to cover any questions you have raised


lordrobs said:
Finally the fire brigade, and this is what made me start this thread in the first place. Now no offence to anyone that works in the service and this is all in my opinion as a non-professional driver. Now I understand that the fire brigade have the worst vehicles to try and get to the scene of an accident in but the style in which they drive seems completely different. Whereas the other services try to pick their way through traffic, using those who have seen them and get out of their way to their advantage and being wary of those that havent the fire brigade seem to use the following approach- Steam up to the stationary traffic, honk on horn a few times, brake at last second leaving yourself inches from the car infront, lean on the horn until they mount the curb, pull into a side road etc.
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That is a sweeping statement. I'm not saying it doesn't happen by any of the emergency services, but I still consider it to be an incorrect assumption that every fire appliance is driven to an incident in that manner.


lordrobs said:
All this seems to do is panic other road users and the time it takes them to get through traffic shows this. I was lucky today manageing to pull into the other lane in plenty of time but then they steam on into solid traffic and do what I described above. They get so close to the car infront that if hey are not on the ball and the person beside them is they can't use the space made from them because they've got too close to manouvre round them. In this situation again the other side of the traffic island was clear and that would have been the quikest option, as it was cars were scattered everywhere by the time they had honked their way through- on the traffic island, on the curb, on the wrong side of the road, half up the roundabout etc.
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Dont take offence at this m8, but it sounds like to me you have recently had an unpleasant experience with a fire appliance attending a firecall and the manner in which you have singled out the Fire and Rescue Service in your comments would suggest so.

I can comment on your issues from experience. I've been in the Fire and Rescue Service for just under 17 years. 12 of which I have been LGV and EFAD ( Emergency Fire Appliance Driver ) trained.

We receive a week long intensive training course to become LGV drivers. After we have passed this, we are not allowed to drive to firecalls under blue light conditions, we are only allowed to drive on station duties, FP and HFRA duties at normal road speeds.

An individual driver must accumulate 20 hours driving time at normal road speeds, after which he attends a week ( or more, depends on individual brigade areas ) intensive training course on an EFAD. This is similar to the training the traffic police receive, and covers many aspects of advanced driving at speed. We are, under law, permitted to exceed the speed limit during this training when required, just like the police are.

This is a pass or fail course. Standards are incredibly high, they simply have to be. If you fail, you are recoursed. You return to your station and continue driving under normal road speeds until a space on another course comes up.

Every EFAD driver receives a refresher course at least every 3 years. This is a 4 day course and once again, pass or fail. If you fail the refresher course, you are taken off the driver rota and are required to sit the complete course once again. Not only that, after passing the EFAD course once again, your driving is under intense scrutiny from both the OIC of your watch and also your other colleagues. If at any time your standards, in their opinion slip, they are entitled to report it to their line manager/station commander and you can and will be removed again from the driving rota. If a Firefighter repeatedly fails to achieve the required standards expected of him/her, they can be removed permanently from EFAD duties.

We pride ourselves on our skill and ability to drive quickly and safely to incidents. As an EFAD driver, there are huge responsibilities placed upon you. You are responsible for getting your crew to the incident safely, knowing exactly where you are going when you roll out that door to a firecall and choosing a route that will get you there in the quickest and safest manner. It's obvious that "time is of the essence" when it comes to responding to firecalls, but there's no point whatsoever driving like a maniac and risking an accident because at the end of the day if this happens, you are not getting to the incident in the first place which benefits no one and indeed, can have serious implications for those who require you at an incident.

Again, not simply "jumping on the defensive" here, but if you compare the emergency service when it comes to accidents involving vehicles attending emergency calls, the police top the charts ( not having a go at the police, no offence intended to any police officers reading this ). The Fire and Rescue Service along with the ambulance service have relatively few incidents involving RTC's with other road vehicles on the way to an emergency call.

Something else I would also wish to point out is that no ( under normal circumstances, I'll get to that shortly ) Fire, police or ambulance driver receives any extra monetary payment for taking on this important responsibility/duty. And along with that, if we do have an accident at any time, its our own private insurance that can be affected as well as our driving licences. Thats not a gripe or complaint on my part, those are just facts. We understand this when we agree to take onboard the responsibility as a driver.

Indeed, some Fire Authorities and certain parts of the ambulance service are finding they are having to pay members of staff to take onboard the duties of driving because of what I mentioned above. Some are asking to be removed from the driving rota because the risks to themselves they feel are too great. Especially in busy city centres, Strathclyde for example have had this problem for years in Glasgow and as a result, firefighters undertaking driving duties there are paid an additional allowance of £10 ( before tax ) per shift. I believe the same thing occurs in London Fire Brigade.

In my and many other fellow firefighters opinions, there can be the odd EFAD driver here and there who is not maintaining standards. These are the idiots who can result in members of the public, like you said in your thread, assuming that every fire appliance is driven in this manner. The idiots who charge through urban areas at a higher speed than is necessary when attending minor incidents like refuse on fire or grass alight. That I will totally agree with, is completely unacceptable. The majority of fire service drivers use their common sense and apply it to each and every individual firecall. So yes, they will be under blue light conditions when attending "minor" incidents, but they should be driving to them at perhaps 6/10ths of their skill and ability because of the nature of the firecall. It's only when more serious calls are attended such as "confirmed persons reported or repeated calls" at a fire or "persons trapped" at an RTC that the driver will drive anywhere near 10/10ths of his ability. This should be the case, I know its the philosophy I use when on duty but once again, I do not dispute that it sometimes does not for whatever reason, work like that.

Finally, I would like to make everyone aware that if indeed you do believe a fire appliance is being driven in a dangerous manner on the way to an incident, you are entitled to make an official complaint. This goes for any of the 3 emergency services. These are taken very seriously indeed and upon receiving an official complaint, an investigating officer will be assigned to it and it will be looked into and dealt with accordingly.

I hope this answers some of your questions from the point of view of the Fire and Rescue Service and if you have any others, feel free to ask and I'll attempt to respond as I can.

To sum up, unfortunately its like every single other thing in life. You will always get a few "bad apples" that cause the rest to be tarred with the same brush. Thankfully, its not as common as it could be when it comes to any of the emergency services. It is acknowledged worldwide that the UK has the best Fire and Rescue Service anywhere when it comes to performance, training and equipment. It is us that everyone else looks to and yes, that does include the United States.

We intend to keep it that way for some considerable time. :cool:
 
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I live on a busy junction on the main route for Ambulance and fire engines.

From what I have seen.

Ambulances do come to a crawl and sometime stop at the red lights.

Fire engines (normally 3 at a time) - come down the road with blues and twos then approaching the junction blast their horns a few times. TBH if you are at that junction and hear them coming you make sure the route is clear - the noise in incredible!

The police traffic cars and dog van all blast through red lights but with blues and twos and use their horns much like the fire engines.

Panda cars are a bit like ambulances and slow down/stop for red lights.

The unmarked cars don't stop but slow down and weave through standing traffic.

TBH they all drive superbly and my hat goes off to them.
 
ive only had probs with ambalances, when they havent been on call, pulling out of junctions right infront of me.

What i do have probs with is other drivers when an emergancy vehicle is behind us. The other day i saw a cop car in the distance behind me, so i pulled over WELL in advance to give the copper as much help as poss. So what did the car behind me do? overtake me and yank on the horn in discust of me pulling over in a place not normally used for cars to 'park'. She then realised it was because of the cop car behind us and she pulled over.

Now to top it off 20 meters down the road at an island we ended up side by side, i was going right, her straight over, we pulled away together (considering i was driving my range rover and in here field of view for oncomming cars) she cut me up!

Back tot he OP, i think too many peeps panic when an emergancy vehicle is behind them. my missus is one of them. i am suprised its not part of the driving test. I find it best to just find a spot and if u cant then its not your fault. they will have to wait.
 
Most of the Emergency service drivers I have met around my parts have been bikers. They all have excellent observation skill which is 80% of the battle, so they are all pretty awesome drivers.

As a driver you're only as good as the people around you. You can be the best driver in the world, but if someone pulls out on you without warning about 5 feet ahead it's going to tarnish that record when you have a collision.
 
Moorron said:
What i do have probs with is other drivers when an emergancy vehicle is behind us. The other day i saw a cop car in the distance behind me, so i pulled over WELL in advance to give the copper as much help as poss. So what did the car behind me do? overtake me and yank on the horn in discust of me pulling over in a place not normally used for cars to 'park'. She then realised it was because of the cop car behind us and she pulled over
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Unfortunately, this occurs more and more frequently. It comes down to poor observational and awareness skills by other road users. We see it a lot and learn to anticipate when it is going to happen. Kinda developed a "sixth sense" for it, I can look at a vehicle, the way its being driven, behaviour of the driver and tell when something of this nature can occur well before it does. Its experience of doing the job that allows this.

Sometimes you can approach a line of traffic and tell that actually using audible warning devices ( firey speak for sirens, two tones and bullhorns :) ) is going to hamper your progress further as it will "spook" other drivers say......on the approach to a bend where they may well pull over right on the bend itself. So you keep the sirens off with the driver in front still blissfully unaware that you are behind him, both drive through the bend checking its clear on the other side for an overtake and activate the sirens then.

Another thing from the point of view of fire appliances. You find a lot of the time there will be more than one fire appliance that requires to get past you. This is because a lot of incidents require a preset PDA ( Pre-determined attendance) of additional vehicles and crews.

For example a shopping centre will require something like 3 water tender ladders and a high reach appliance like a Bronto.

Then what happens a lot is you have the appliance at the front of the queue is noticed by the traffic in front and people pull over and allow it to pass. As it passes, they are so mesmerised by the first appliance their head turns to track the appliance as it goes past them and they pay no attention whatsoever to what is approaching from behind, the second appliance. Eyes still on the first appliance disappearing over the horizon they begin to pull back out onto the road from where they have stopped. You can see what can happen next......

However, once again, you can normally tell with your "sixth sense" what road users are going to react like that and thankfully there are very few accidents caused by that set of circumstances.

But be aware folks, that when you see and hear a fire appliance approaching you from behind and you give way to allow it to pass, dont get too caught up in watching it once its by you. Before you pull away again, have a check and listen out for further fire appliances behind you ( as you "should" be doing anyway before pulling away......the auld mirror, signal, manoeuvre etc !!! ).
 
Hmm, i dont know because i havnt seen too many emergency vehicles darting about. But the one i did see, a Firetruck.. stormed across some traffic lights at the bottom of our road.. everyone had seen/heard it so the traffic was stationary but this guy was flying and its a small crossing of which he went from wrong side of the road to the correct side.. looked awesome.
 
Draeger said:
I can comment on your issues from experience. I've been in the Fire and Rescue Service for just under 17 years. 12 of which I have been LGV and EFAD ( Emergency Fire Appliance Driver ) trained.

We receive a week long intensive training course to become LGV drivers. After we have passed this, we are not allowed to drive to firecalls under blue light conditions, we are only allowed to drive on station duties, FP and HFRA duties at normal road speeds.

An individual driver must accumulate 20 hours driving time at normal road speeds, after which he attends a week ( or more, depends on individual brigade areas ) intensive training course on an EFAD. This is similar to the training the traffic police receive, and covers many aspects of advanced driving at speed. We are, under law, permitted to exceed the speed limit during this training when required, just like the police are.
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as i understand it, the ambulance service is the same. They have their own driving course, and you must pass it before you are allowed to drive under blue light conditions

the police however are slightly different. as i understand it, there are 3 driver trained levels

none : community support officers etc.. and can not response to emergencys or drive under blue light conditions

response : they drive normal panda cars, but are usually beat officers and take a 2 week training course to drive under blue light conditions and break the rules of the road where appropriate

advanced : these are intended for prolonged pursuits, and usually drive much faster vehicles like mondeos etc.. this course is much longer and has a theory test as well. this covers traffic officers as well, allthought they recieve extra training but this extra training does not permit them to do anything a normal response driver cant do.

Pinter75 said:
From what I have seen.

Ambulances do come to a crawl and sometime stop at the red lights.
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all ambulance drivers are trained to hare through red lights at speed

its just that sometimes the cargo does not permit this. eg you cant start trying to revive some1 who's unconcious while flying about the place.

same goes with patient transfers. sometimes ambulances will be used for heart patient transplants etc.. where theres no rush, but they can use the blues and twos and dont have to jump the lights if they dont want to.
 
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lordrobs said:
Finally the fire brigade, and this is what made me start this thread in the first place. Now no offence to anyone that works in the service and this is all in my opinion as a non-professional driver. Now I understand that the fire brigade have the worst vehicles to try and get to the scene of an accident in but the style in which they drive seems completely different. Whereas the other services try to pick their way through traffic, using those who have seen them and get out of their way to their advantage and being wary of those that havent the fire brigade seem to use the following approach- Steam up to the stationary traffic, honk on horn a few times, brake at last second leaving yourself inches from the car infront, lean on the horn until they mount the curb, pull into a side road etc.
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sorry

but you've missed the blindingly obvious

you can throw a police car / ambulance through gaps in the traffic. but you simply cant throw a fire engine around like that. and as already pointed out, half the time they're deliberately trying to make a path for the other 2/3 units following behind.
 
When I was younger I was sat in the back of my Auntie's car and a fire appliance was heard approaching, she panicked, braking too hard and rear ended the car infront.

The appliance then proceeded to force it's way down the middle of the road, in doing so, our car caught on the rear of the fire appliance, lifting it clean off the ground, before coming back down to earth with a bump.

Turned out it was a hoax call anyway :(
 
MrLOL said:
sorry

but you've missed the blindingly obvious
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Not really, as I meantioned I accept they have the worst vehicles. In the case I meantioned it was a single appliance.

As I say I'm no expert. Everything I meantioned was purely from my own personal "joe bloggs" perspective.
 
Draeger said:
Before you reply to my post lordrobs:-

  • Read through this carefully
  • Please understand that I am not "jumping on the defensive" and having a "go" at your comments
  • I'm simply presenting some facts and attempting to cover any questions you have raised
Click to expand...
Excellent reply Draeger, I appreciate the time you took writing it.

As I said I am not an expert in this and what I said in my post was purely from a joe on the street perspective.

My original post ended up looking like a dig at the fire brigade due to the wording. That wasn't my intention, I was trying to point out the differences but my own opinions (not based on any kind of knowledge in the subject) on the driving came through much stronger than I intended.

Your right, my post was partly based on a bad experience. I thought the way the people in the traffic ahead of me were forced around was a bit much and more importantly counter productive, again imo.

In the fire brigades defense for every 20 police I see I probably see 10 ambulances and 1 fire engine so a single experience is always going to stand out more than the others.
 
I'm a Paramedic. Before you are even let loose in an Ambulance you need Catagories C1 and D1 on your license. We undergo a 3 week intensive and residential driver training course. It is a pass or fail and the required standard is incredibly high....the last written papers have a 95% pass mark! Ambulances are heavy...3.5 tonnes and do not lend themselves well to being thrown around. Emergency driving isn't about going as fast as possible, it is about making progress. I can get to incidents plenty quick enough by picking my way through traffic at a sensible speed. I need to ensure I can see any potential dangers and ensure that other road users have seen me and have time to react! As for red lights, it is daft to go tearing through them! They are to be treat as a give way, not a right of way. If I have an accident going through a red light then I am held accountable regardless of whether it is my fault. Emergency drivers still face prosecution for their actions. If necessary, I will crawl through traffic lights until I am sure I have been seen by all vehicles using the junction. In order to treat the patient, we first have to get there....I am no use to them dead.

I am also RRV trained (Police spec Volvo) which requires a further week training. This covers how to cover ground very quickly. That involved a lot of country lane driving at silly speeds and was great fun.

The Ambulance service by it's very nature is by far the busiest of the Emergency services in relation to responding to actual emergencies. Almost every single job we do requires us to use blue lights and sirens on the way there. We have strict government targets on response times which the other services do not. In a 12h shift, I can respond to 10-14 emergency calls meaning we have a much greater experience of driving under these conditions. When you do this many calls, the adrenaline buzz is numbed somewhat to the point that it is just another task. This makes things a whole lot safer for us and other road users as "red mist" hardly ever occurs.

Please bear in mind that if you see an Ambulance, even if it is not on blue lights, it may have a seriously ill patient on board. As such, one of us may be stood up in the back of the vehicle working on a patient. This means pulling out of junctions and other manouvres has to be done slowly to prevent injury to the people in the back. Give us some slack and imagine it was one of your family members in the back....give us time to get out of junctions, don't cut in front of us suddenly and don't come knocking on a patients door asking us to move the vehicle because we've blocked you in ;)
 
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