Racism, football and politics . . .
- Thread starter stockhausen
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He's not even looking at the black player when he does it (or is it supposed to be aimed at someone else out of view) and it isn't sustained but just a short jumping motion... that and no audio... I mean plenty of doubt there for the defence to throw in, could easy just carry on with the argument that he was cold etc.. don't see how he could be reasonable convicted of anything over that short clip.
Soldato
I cant tell if he is or is not looking at the player tbh, but I also can't tell if he is making monkey gestures or not either. He might be, but he might also be cold or other things. There is deffo doubt based on the short clip.
Permabanned
Cold? lol
You guys do some weird **** when cold then.
You guys do some weird **** when cold then.
Soldato
Cold? lol
You guys do some weird **** when cold then.
Really? You've never jumped up and down and moved your arms about a bit when cold?
From that clip do you believe, beyond doubt, that he is making monkey gestures?
Permabanned
Not beyond doubt no, but it looks highly probable its a racist monkey gesture/noises.
Never in my life seen anyone do that when cold, ridiculous.
Soldato
Well, that's the whole point of innocent before guilty... if the evidence is not beyond doubt there is too much room for being wrong.
You've never, ever, seen anyone do anything like that when cold?!?!
Permabanned
Making what look like monkey noises and gestures? No, never. Its a ridiculous statement.
Soldato
Its fairly typical to purse you mouth and breath in and out fast with short breaths, its also fairly typical to move around a bit up and downy, and fairly typical to move your arms around a bit too. I think it is way more ridiculous to think the only thing he could be doing is making monkey gestures. Sorry. If it was more obvious I would agree, but I can't because it isn't.
Permabanned
The guys raging at a black player, clear as day. Cold my arse.
You guys are ridiculous, making excuses for what is blatant racism. There should be no defence for this type of behaviour.
This place amazes me sometimes.
Soldato
Same, if it was blatant I would agree... and believe you me I'm no fan of racism at all.
Thats only the second clip I've seen, and I now think he is looking at the steward not the player, based on that clip I'd have a hard time distinguishing agitation from monkey gestures, all while cold xD ... maybe I'm just naive, not really into football etc not seen much like it.
Soldato
I think it's likely to be racism, but @Threepwood does have a point that people do jump up and down and breathe in and out fast to keep warm on a terrace. Also they lack of reaction from stewards and no audible evidence puts a bit of doubt in my mind. I don't think that is an unreasonable opinion.
But as I say, I think it's more likely to be racist than not.
But as I say, I think it's more likely to be racist than not.
Caporegime
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But with yourself, it's never:
"Actually, now I've seen it that's pretty obvious racism"
It's now some deflection on whether a video would prove reasonable doubt....
Caporegime
Lol
Football, working class sport.
Working class people (white van man), generally morons/thick.
Racism/xenophobia more prevalent with lack of education.
How do I know this? Because I'm from the above. Just don't like football and my dad Millwall fan, racist, scraped enough money to let me go to uni and see and learn more.
All generalisation but usually holds true.
Instinct, previous experiences and a dose of stereotypes, again, usually hold true.
Football, working class sport.
Working class people (white van man), generally morons/thick.
Racism/xenophobia more prevalent with lack of education.
How do I know this? Because I'm from the above. Just don't like football and my dad Millwall fan, racist, scraped enough money to let me go to uni and see and learn more.
All generalisation but usually holds true.
Instinct, previous experiences and a dose of stereotypes, again, usually hold true.
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Apr 2013
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- 4,095
Even if he'd walked up to the player, looked him in the eye and said "You are a chimp" it wouldn't be proof they are racist. If there were a series of such incidents from them, then it could perhaps be indicative of the person being racist.
Just because you were born into a working class family, it doesn't mean you can make sweeping generalisations that are every bit as bigoted as the people you're purporting to be against.
Middle class and upper class people are just as racist, I've seen it first hand, they're just far more subtle about it. They'll be racist when it comes to hiring people, yet the reason for not hiring them will be very plausible so no one will question it. They'll be openly racist amongst their close group of friends, but outwardly they'd never say anything because they have a reputation/career to think of. Working class people are less educated you're right, but that just means they don't have the intelligence to be subtle about it, they'll go to a football match and call a black player a monkey, where as the middle class bloke will be at home having a beer in the privacy of his living room saying the same thing to his mate.
And this is the problem with having the concept of a "Hate Crime" in this context at all.
It is way too subjective, Pretty much the legal definition of whether or not a gesture like this constitutes a "Hate crime" under current law is simply that an offended person has to think that it does.
This really is insane. (And really rather Orwellian grade scary)
Yes, he may have been doing the Monkey thing. But he may just indeed have been hopping from foot to foot because he is exited or cold. I have just tried it myself (In the privacy of my own home with the curtains drawn and the lights out, just in case somebody passing by might be offended by my movements) And yes, his movements are entirely consistent with just being cold or exited.
Only he knows for certain what he was doing and why and nothing (In the absence of any corroborating evidence) can be proven otherwise.
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