Royalty Payments

Daveyboy · 29 Dec 2006 at 16:23

Does anyone know how I would find out how much it would cost to pay royalties to an artist?

I am currently composing a house track that has samples from a big artist and obviously would want to pay that artist for their work. Is it a one off payment, or do you need to sign contracts etc, and who would I talk to? I'm guessing e-mail the record company?

Also would any agreement like this cripple my chances of making money from it?

daz · 29 Dec 2006 at 17:48

Whatever you do, get permission first... otherwise you'll owe everything to the artist in question. They might even not let you use the samples.

It is indeed likely to cripple your chances to make money from it - but it does help build a name for yourself. Verve made barely anything from Bitter Sweet Symphony sales (although of course it did put them on the map)...

SexyGreyFox · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:03

Laws were passed a while back where you could rip large amounts of somebody elses work without paying a penny.
Depending on the size of the sample depends if you pay or not.

Its either that OR you don't need permission for a sample of a certain length.

Somebody will put me right no doubt.

daz · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:04

dmpoole said:
Laws were passed a while back where you could rip large amounts of somebody elses work without paying a penny.
Depending on the size of the sample depends if you pay or not.

Its either that OR you don't need permission for a sample of a certain length.

Somebody will put me right no doubt.

Fair use applies to...

for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright

semi-pro waster · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:17

I think you'd be best to get in touch with the artist and/or the BPI (assuming it is a British artist) as if memory serves they are the ones who administer royalty payments.

There isn't as far as I know any legislation regarding sample length other than what is covered by the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 (as amended by the Copyright Regulations 2003) which daz has highlighted, none of which apply to you. You have to consider the sample length as de minimus samples (e.g. so short as to be insignificant) are thought to be ok but otherwise you have probably breached copyright law, I believe that American rappers generally tend to have 7-8 seconds of music as a baseline where they are thought to be safe but that is a guideline and hardly a legally sound(pun unintentional) standpoint.

The likelihood of it damaging your chances to make money depends on the terms of any agreement you reach, Jason Nevins only got a standard remixers fee ($500?) for the huge remix of Walk This Way vs Run DMC.

SexyGreyFox · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:22

daz said:
Fair use applies to...

I can remeber a case a few years back that went to court where an artist took a large sample and the judge decreed it didn't infringe copyright even though it was the main part all through the new song.

daz · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:34

Also it has to be considered that there are various types of royalties - performers'/publishing (as in the original recording rights) and writers'. I.e. some companies that want to use "Walking on Sunshine" get some other band to record a version because they don't want to pay to use the original recording by the band... it works out cheaper, but the result isn't usually anywhere near as good. Of course, they are still liable to pay the writers' royalties.

glitch · 29 Dec 2006 at 18:39

dmpoole said:
Laws were passed a while back where you could rip large amounts of somebody elses work without paying a penny.
Depending on the size of the sample depends if you pay or not.

Its either that OR you don't need permission for a sample of a certain length.

Somebody will put me right no doubt.

The only way you can sample another artist's work without their prior permission and get away with it is if you don't actually make any money from the sampling. All they would do would be to slap a 'ceast and decist' order on you to prevent you from distributing the work.

Without material gain from the use of the sample it would take someone with more money than sense (or someone with a point to prove) to sue you for no pounds and no pence, as it's only the money you have directly made from the track(s) that contain the sample(s) they can go after.

But if you were intending on releasing the track into the public domain in the hope of making money from it, you'd need to get the sample cleared first. And make sure you have written permission. Unfortunately when it comes to profiting from your venture the ball is firmly in the other artist's court - if they say you can't use the sample you shouldn't even try and get away with it.

Daveyboy; find the website of the artist in question and try to get in contact with them directly, or failing that go through their manager, PA or other minion. A bit of guff about how much you like their work is always a good starter, but don't lay it on too thick. I know people who have gained respectable results from saying that have already made the track (and here, listen to the bit that has your sample in it...) and those that have said the track is yet to be written and is waiting for the artist's go-ahead.

But ultimately you've got to put yourself in the artist's shoes and see how you'd respond. How many requests for sample licences do you get a week? I'd have a standard response set out with a ludicrous fee/rate on it, just to rid myself of the timewasters. However, if someone sends me the track they have done (well, the bit I need to hear) I know there's an end product and I'm more likely to want to negotiate.

Best of luck to you. Any chance of a sneak peek?

Daveyboy · 29 Dec 2006 at 23:53

glitch said:
1. But if you were intending on releasing the track into the public domain in the hope of making money from it, you'd need to get the sample cleared first.

2. I know people who have gained respectable results from saying that have already made the track (and here, listen to the bit that has your sample in it...) and those that have said the track is yet to be written and is waiting for the artist's go-ahead.

3. Any chance of a sneak peek?

Cheers for the info. The artist is American and I'm guessing they don't personally check e-mails or whatever from their sites personally. I will look to see if theres any contact info on there in a minute.

1. I am intending to release it as CD/Vinyl/MP3

2. Very good idea, seeing as I have an almost finished article. I'm using 2 vocal samples including backing singers, each around 8 seconds long and one plain acapella around 3-4 seconds so its not taking the micky like a whole cover or total remix

3. no! apparently I can't post it according to the forum rules anyway (commies) but I wouldn't want anyone nicking my idea now would I?

Daveyboy · 30 Dec 2006 at 00:01

semi-pro waster said:
I think you'd be best to get in touch with the artist and/or the BPI (assuming it is a British artist)

The likelihood of it damaging your chances to make money depends on the terms of any agreement you reach, Jason Nevins only got a standard remixers fee ($500?) for the huge remix of Walk This Way vs Run DMC.

The artist is American, however... so not sure how that works. Looking around t'internet there are collection agencies, but no info on whether or not you contact the artist or original label first which is Sony/CBS. No details on their sites either :rolleyes:

Is that true about Nevins? That was massive for a long time and he only got a poke in the eye with a sharp stick??? Sounds like a bum deal to me - is that because it was "Nevins Vs."?

Anyone know what Mylo got for Dr. Pressure?

glitch · 30 Dec 2006 at 10:33

The short story is that Nevins remixed "It's Like That", splicing the track with one of his own, and then released around 50 pressings on a white label which started the buzz around the track off. He then approached Profile (Run DMC's label) with regard to licensing the track for a commercial release and to ensure that the use of the track was all legal and above board.

Profile then offer Nevins a deal to get the track released. Seeing as they owned the rights to the original and knew Nevins had approached them first, they had him over a barrel. Either he agrees to Profile releasing it as "Run-DMC vs. Jason Nevins" and the standard remixers fee of $5,000 or they'll ensure it never sees the light of day. All that hard work down the pan.

Nevins agrees to the offer (obviously looking to the future and any possible success he may have off the back of the track) and Profile then went on to market the track, sell roughly $5m+ copies and leave Nevins with a measly fee for his efforts but give him the sort of publicity that you can't buy. And apparently Run D.M.C never actually liked the remix!

So he's now a hugely successful remixer and producer, all off the back of that one track. What he should have done is approach another record label with the track and let them negotiate with Profile for the rights. They'd have got a better deal, Nevins would have got a better fee, but he might not have found such fame if things had worked out that way.

What I didn't ask in my previous post was how you intend to sell your track when it is complete. Are you intending on going solo or do you have labels interested in selling your work? Because if you can get a label interested, as I mention above, they will be able to cut a better deal with you and know all the right people to talk to.

Oh, and when I said 'sneak peek' I meant of the track minus the sample - would like to hear what you 'do'.

Daveyboy · 30 Dec 2006 at 18:47

glitch, mp3 taster coming soon