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Poll: Scottish independence vote

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Biohazard, Sep 23, 2013.

?

Scottish independence, yes or no?

  1. I'm Scottish and in favour of independence

    137 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. I'm Scottish and against independence

    167 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. I'm from another part of UK and in favour of Scottish independence

    273 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. I'm from another part of UK and against Scottish independence

    682 vote(s)
    54.2%
  1. Biohazard

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    We are now within a years reach of the referendum, with under 360 days left to determine Scotland's place in UK, the wider world, and in many ways, itself in this journey. This year will see both Yes Scotland and Better Together make the final push to save their respective visions and arguments for Scotland. Past are the arguments about process, how will we have the referendum, and this space is now filling with the questions, arguments and points by all involved across civic society.



    This milestone was marked for Better Together by Alistair Darling on Calton Hill;

    [​IMG]

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    That event was quickly followed by a people's rally for Independence including Yes Scotland and other affiliated groups in support of Scottish Independence;

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Now, what can be readily accepted in this "Fight for Scotland" is that while polls show Better Together ahead in the polls - with an occasional pinch of salt - it is becoming clearer that the real advantage Yes Scotland hold is an engaged and stimulated grass roots support. It became known that Better Together named itself 'Project Fear' in internal banter, so the opposition Yes Scotland et al is styling itself as 'Project Hope'. How this stramash come melee of polling, the largely anti-independence media, come against a huge advantage in 'old fashioned' canvassing will be fascinating in the final moments of campaigning.

    So we get to what it's all about, why are we going to be bothering people at their door? One of the key measures to a nation is what people think and feel, and for this purposes a number of attitude surveys in Scotland have canvassed similar opinion on political arrangements since before devolution. It is with these that we can say, with any weight of confidence, what the 'mood' of the nation is. There is, as you would expect, much debate and disagreement on how to interpret these opinions but what is commonly accepted is that Scotland, post devolution, has a significant (majority) desire for further devolution of both policy making in areas such as welfare but also economic autonomy. Typically Holyrood is the place where people in Scotland think that "decisions that effect Scotland" should be made. Defence and foreign affairs is contently seated within Westminster in this context. It should be said that an arrangement like this, such as Full Fiscal Autonomy or Devo Max, remains the most popular settlement for the people who live and work in Scotland. The reasons are typically varied, but there is strong appetite for devolution to work better for Scotland. Some parties have offered various constitutional policies, such as Labour and the Liberal democrats, but have either failed to deliver or realise the potential to match the aspirations of Scotland. The Westminster Coalition ruled out that constitutional arrangement. So this leaves us with a once in a generation opportunity to decide, to change Scotland, to try to become the fairer more just society that nearly everybody who lives here wants it to be across the political spectrum.

    Yes Scotland believes that Scotland can flourish as an independent nation, able to elect the governments it chooses and utilizing our resources to become a fairer more peaceful nation.

    Better Together believes that Scotland is well served with the United Kingdom, receives benefits from pooled resourcing, and that the needs of further devolution will be acted upon.

    The post below will provide my argument for Scotland voting Yes, and I'd like to welcome debate below be it questions, arguments or observations. What will not be tolerated is unwarranted abuse or racism, as whatever the result on 18th September next year we all have to get on in any event be it as nations or people. It is important for the sake of clarify and effort that people stick to the topic at hand.

    Yours for Scotland,

    Biohazard
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  2. Biohazard

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    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    *reserved*
     
  3. Biohazard

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    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    **reserved**
     
  4. Castiel

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 26, 2010

    Posts: 63,651

    Lol...this won't be a debate..it will be a one sided poster ad for the Yes Campaign with any opposing views shouted down or ignored...just look at the pictures posted to see the inherent bias in the opening post calling for a fair debate. :)

    I'm out before the insults start flying...and they will.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  5. Xordium

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 8, 2009

    Posts: 12,702

    Biohazard a polite request can you not bring all this kind of stuff into the other threads and keep it in here?
     
  6. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,616

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18443584

    http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18450982

    http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18271846

    We don't need another one.

    Agreed. The debate hasn't moved on one inch since three years ago.
     
  7. Xordium

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 8, 2009

    Posts: 12,702

    We do if it keeps it in and out of the others.
     
  8. Biohazard

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    Hmm, well not particularly. It's a discussion on it, it won't be boxed to it where there is an obvious overlap.

    Sorry.

    I disagree. I'm continually asked for a thread, or responses to stuff OT, so here it is. If you don't wish to join in, that's up to you.

    Feel free to profess a positive case for the Union, Castiel, or forever hold your peace. :)

    The pictures are of politically engaged public events that people are free to attend, I'm trying to give an opportunity to see what's going on beyond the headlines. That's not biased, and neither are the pictures themselves.

    I've even put in a foreword from both parties, Darling and Salmond.

    That's entirely fair.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  9. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,616

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    And the other threads are inadequate because?

    It's a thinky veiled attempt at using these forums as a political platform.
     
  10. Biohazard

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    The decision for me to post a thread isn't up for discussion, constitutional change is, my reasoning for posting isn't of your concern.

    Please feel free to start contributing to the debate, as opposed to trying to close it down, before I rtm posts for pruning.

    Thanks
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,569

    Location: Plymouth

    The big issue I see isn't the vote itself, or even the outcome, but the inaccurate and incomplete information that comes from both camps.

    The no camp puts out constant negativity without any real honest discussion, and the yes camp seems to portray salmond's views as some sort of gospel even when the decisions are not scotland's to make (such as whether scotland would keep the pound or the status of scotland in the EU).

    What is really needed is an honest debate, with clear splits between Scotland's decisions and those involving scotland and others, and a clear assessment of both the benefits and drawbacks held in an honest fashion.
     
  12. Xordium

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 8, 2009

    Posts: 12,702

    So will you be joining a Scottish forum if it occurs or will you still post here in this English based one?
     
  13. gettothechopper

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 22, 2010

    Posts: 4,082

    Location: Southampton

    I dont like the idea of scotland leaving

    Its the same thing as the europe vote. Its just a big gamble that you might be better off or might be worse off, its too massive to understand the outcome. Anyone that argues either way is too much overstating their crystal ball reading skills

    I know two scots and they both want to stay in. Thats 100% !
     
  14. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,616

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    You'd derail a thread on the whether with Indy debate if you could ;)

    The reasons for you starting this thread are very much up for discussion if the main reason was promoting your own interests, which is clearly the only purpose, and is against the rules.

    Otherwise you'd just post in the old thread rather than coving the same old **** we went thought last time.

    Nothing new has been added to the debate since the last thread by either side.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  15. Biohazard

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    Posts: 31,334

    Stretch, everybody who posts a political opinion here is using it to 'promote their own interests'.

    This is my thread, if you don't like it, leave.
     
  16. Biohazard

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    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    Accepting that momentarily, how would you suggest to improve the quality of information provided to the electorate?
     
  17. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,616

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    You've derailed thread after thread with this topic. There is already a thread, and I've RTM this one.

    No one else has spammed the forums with political propaganda like you have.

    I'm not against debate, but this is canvassing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
  18. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,569

    Location: Plymouth

    To be honest, it is probably too late now to get the full details of the impact of independence clearly hammered out. However, you could do a control, influence, observe type breakdown of the consequences. Just off the top of my head, and by no means comprehensive:

    Control - post independence taxation and spending, employment law, benefit structure, applications to join international bodies, trident location (partially).

    Influence - Separation of assets and debt with rUK, costs of trident relocation (because you don't get the right to make a decision without any responsibility for the consequences), currency union with the uk or eu.

    Observe - requirements to join and acceptance into international bodies, market reaction, decisions taken by businesses on location.

    This may be a decision likely to be made on ideology, but that doesn't mean the consequences should not be considered.
     
  19. Biohazard

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    Joined: Aug 29, 2003

    Posts: 31,334

    They are, both Holyrood and Westminster have produced - and are producing - a series of whitepapers on many if not all of the issues raised. I'm not sure if you've read them all, because I certainly haven't, but you are right in that it perhaps is a bit too late to do something structurally to the campaign in that respect. The undecided segment are the ones that will win this, and they are complaining that the information from both sides is lacking but that they trust what comes from Holyrood more than Westminster, quite a lot more. Yet there is obviously some arguing to be done yet with respect to the polling.

    I would say that I don't think you can ever, with utmost certainty, predict the future. Ultimately, that's what either terms like 'full impact' or 'unanswered questions' point too. Impact assessments are quite obviously possible as we can see, but nobody can say what will happen for Scotland anymore than they can for the UK.

    As with most political campaigns, this will be done primarily by leaflet word of mouth and media; I would imagine that only political anoraks and the media digest the volumes of text parliaments produce on a daily basis.

    This is why it's ultimately, like it or not, going to be down to who people trust the most.
     
  20. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,732

    Location: Inverkip

    From where I see it, and I'm not the only one, Scotland will inherit 9% of the debt burden (as that is all we make up of the UK population) and will also receive 9% of all the assets of the UK given that we also contributed to them.