1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Poll: Scottish independence vote

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Biohazard, Sep 23, 2013.

?

Scottish independence, yes or no?

  1. I'm Scottish and in favour of independence

    137 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. I'm Scottish and against independence

    167 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. I'm from another part of UK and in favour of Scottish independence

    273 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. I'm from another part of UK and against Scottish independence

    682 vote(s)
    54.2%
  1. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,734

    Location: Inverkip

    Yep. keep dreaming Kitch. Standard & Poor's announcement of an independent Scotland likely having an AAA+ rating must really annoy you. Oh, no oil included in that assessment either.
     
  2. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,474

    That's on the basis that they can get a currency union somewhere, to which there's no plan or agreement with anyone.

    Which was my point.
     
  3. Castiel

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 26, 2010

    Posts: 63,651

    They also never gave a specific rating, they just compared the Scottish economy (including oil) to that of some Aaa rated similarly sized countries such as New Zealand..and said that there was no reason that Scotland could not become an investment grade economy..they also said it would depend upon many factors, one of which would be significant shrinking of its oversized financial sector and there would be significant hurdles to overcome including stating that Scotland would be hard pressed to replicate the deep capital markets it enjoys as part of the UK.

    So it seems the Yes lobby are spinning this somewhat, particularly as S&P don't even have an AAA+ Rating category or that fact that they actually said there was no reason that after initial teething issues that Scotland would not be graded at or about its Investment Grade Rating of BBB...(dependent upon Scotland being able to issue or have formal union with a global reserve currency), but they have not yet taken any stance on Scotland and neither would they until after Independence and the outcomes of any negotiations. Its conclusion were "the challenge for Scotland to go it alone would be significant, but not unsurpassable"..which is pretty much what most people accept anyway.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3866b10a-9fa8-11e3-94f3-00144feab7de.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  4. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,474

    Can you imagine a general election where one of the parties were proclaiming to be able to give everyone everything they desire only they couldn't say how and they'd figure it out when voted in?

    This whole process seems farcical. They want to leave a union, only to create a union with others who don't want to be in a union with them...
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  5. dessimpson

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 27, 2008

    Posts: 1,774

    Location: Gloucester

    I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It saddens me when people I know take them seriously and actually believe the drivel and lies.
     
  6. phill1978

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 5, 2009

    Posts: 1,226

    the biggest problem with scotland is that it is largely ruined by by poor governence. such a beautiful landscape hindered by largely horrible suburban areas and poverty.
     
  7. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 635

    I'd make that argument for the whole of the UK, to be honest. Closely followed by something about democracy being the best choice of a bad bunch.
     
  8. mark2410

    Hitman

    Joined: Aug 2, 2004

    Posts: 909

    no, the biggest problem with scotland is that most of the scottish media is based in glasgow.

    in the same way the london media ignore the rest of the uk and assume that the entire uk is just like london the glasow media does the same. its why scotland is constantly bombarded by socialist propaganda all because glasow is a giant money pit run by communists whos only real tallent is spending the rest of the countries money.

    the independence move is largely based on this premise, telling the poor that if they vote for independence they will get more of other peoples money for nothing.

    scotland as a whole is not poor but the media often portrays it as an extended glasow, impoverished and ruined by "toffs" from london. economically edinburgh has far more in common with london than it does glasgow (financial services, hello) and how long do they think edinburgh and aberdeen would put up with glasgow spending their money?
     
  9. mark2410

    Hitman

    Joined: Aug 2, 2004

    Posts: 909

    no, the biggest problem with scotland is that most of the scottish media is based in glasgow.

    in the same way the london media ignore the rest of the uk and assume that the entire uk is just like london the glasow media does the same. its why scotland is constantly bombarded by socialist propaganda all because glasow is a giant money pit run by communists whos only real tallent is spending the rest of the countries money.

    the independence move is largely based on this premise, telling the poor that if they vote for independence they will get more of other peoples money for nothing.

    scotland as a whole is not poor but the media often portrays it as an extended glasow, impoverished and ruined by "toffs" from london. economically edinburgh has far more in common with london than it does glasgow (financial services, hello) and how long do they think edinburgh and aberdeen would put up with glasgow spending their money?
     
  10. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    They said nothing of the sort.

    They really said "The Scottish economy conforms with the typical profile of sovereigns rated BBB or higher"

    BBB is a long way from Aaa.

    They also highlighted quite a lot of risks - such as the large finance sector. They suggest this might well get redomiciled away from Scotland, but then the large contribution to GDP and lots of jobs would get "redomiciled" too.
     
  11. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    But those other people aren't going to get taxed any more either - honest. So all the extra money will come from... erm... well.... Not being governed by Westminster?
     
  12. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,474

    Don forget "oil, lol." They are dreaming if they think they will get large tax revenue from the mostly hard to reach fields that are left. It will be substantial but some of the figures are lol worthy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  13. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    But isn't that already going into the sovereign wealth fund? And paying for infrastructure? And needed against the current budget deficit?

    How many times is the same money being spent?
     
  14. helmet

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 3,399

    There are many bigger problems in Scotland and in the UK as a whole than this, but if it can be used to act as a circus act now that Big Brother has lost its ratings, ramble on.
    That vote needs edited btw, to add a "I'm from x and I think both ways things will stay the same".
     
  15. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,474

    They are just in a weak bargaining position all round, they want to use the pound but they also want all the oil, they want large tax revenue from oil but they need foreign companies to be willing to pay it.

    The delusion that everyone will give them what they want for nothing in return is astounding, maybe if labour was in power they would as well as opening the borders up to them, but that's another discussion!
     
  16. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,725

    That's my biggest worry, SNP seem to have allocated that revenue several times over, although they can't give accurate figures.

    My other worry is the fact that people don't seem to expect benefits etc to be cut and taxes to be raised much, it will happen post independence even if it's just for 10-20 years as the country gets sorted out.
     
  17. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    No, no, don't worry. Benefits are going to be raised and taxes cut. You simply have it the wrong way round. Says so in the white paper (pages 77-79).

    The only cuts are to defence (but still spending more in Scotland than the UK does), ending the proposed married couples tax allowance, ending "shares for rights" and "providing for a streamlined system of overseas representation focused on Scottish citizens and priority business sectors" whatever the heck that is.

    And we won't have to pay for Westminster or Whitehall, but we will have to pay for our own public institutions with the implied reduction in volume efficiency.
     
  18. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,474

    Manifestos like this tend to be filled with hyperbole, whilst drizzled with a touch of delusion to hide the downright lies.

    That's on all sides.

    It amuses me how they think they can produce a white paper like this without having any firm plans or agreement in place as to which currency it will be paid in or what it will be worth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  19. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,725

    In their defence kitch9 the UK government has pretty much stone walled any attempted negotiations on almost anything, basically the attitude is - we'll bother with this if you can get a yes vote. It's a clever tactic, completely undermines the YES campaign but does stink of Westminster arrogance and even if there is a no vote it'll only heighten tensions long term.
     
  20. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,618

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    You think pre-negotiations with Alex would be anything less than acrimonious?

    He plays lip service to statesmanship, but it's not hard to see right though it. Let's all sit down and "negotiate" like adults... year, right. We've all seen how negotiating with the SNP works.

    They want negotiations now precisely to create division.

    It would sour relations far beyond any damage caused by not negotiating on something Scotland doesn't want.

    Why would Westminster do anything else?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014