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Poll: Scottish independence vote

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Biohazard, Sep 23, 2013.

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Scottish independence, yes or no?

  1. I'm Scottish and in favour of independence

    137 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. I'm Scottish and against independence

    167 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. I'm from another part of UK and in favour of Scottish independence

    273 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. I'm from another part of UK and against Scottish independence

    682 vote(s)
    54.2%
  1. Weaver

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 9, 2008

    Posts: 722

    Location: It's Grimm up Norf


    Again you seem to think cherry picking from one system to another is in some way a counter argument. Its not!

    I agree with you... it would need the agreement of two sovereign states. Personally I couldn’t care less what the SNP or Alex Salmonds political manifesto is. That wont come into play until 2016 at the Scottish Elections. The referendum is not a party political issue in spite of Westminster and the MSM propaganda pushing it as one.

    Further to one of your three key points, coal, tin, iron, gold, silver etc etc are all natural resources shouldn’t we split these too? When you've thought about this and realised where the deposits actually lie then I'm guessing that will be a firm NO also. Its pointless to debate that point any further as it always seems to break down to ridiculous levels. Personally I don’t think the UK union (including Scotland) exploiting a natural resource is any claim to geographic areas therefore I wouldn’t be asking for a cut of those resources that lay in other parts of the UK after independence.


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  2. Weaver

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 9, 2008

    Posts: 722

    Location: It's Grimm up Norf

    I wouldnt be surprised if the SNP and Salmond were playing the long game and werent really interested in achieving any of the things mention as important by UK politicians and media nor do I care. After all it would mean that in 2016 they could run on a ticket of 'we tried but they wouldnt play ball. So heres the options we have now no nuclear subs, a new state with no debt and our own currency'...


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  3. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,732

    and it's being beefed up this year, or at least they are trying to on the 700th anniversary, just people aren't that interested.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-26405668

    Remembered by whom? Very few if truth be told, I'd love to know how many Scots know that date. Incidentally according to that article it's taking place on the 28th/29th this year.
     
  4. Macro

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 9, 2006

    Posts: 5,696

    I actually agree with you for different reasons. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the like of Salmond would actually not mind a no vote as it would leave him and the SNP in power in Scotland for the foreseeable future on a ticket of we tried but Westminster/English/Welsh/Irish did <insert bad thing of your choice here> to prevent what was clearly the will of Scots from happening. Vote for us and we'll use <insert % of YES vote here> to get concessions from Westminster, we've sent them a clear message and we demand Devo max.

    I tend to think if there was a YES vote the SNP and Wee 'eck might get one more parliament before they were replaced by Scottish incarnations of the mainstream parties.
     
  5. GiraffePencils

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 15, 2013

    Posts: 2,996

    Location: Edinburgh

    I don't like how childish Salmond is being in my eyes, Admittedly I've not read as much as I should've to date, but with things like the currency union when the UK say "no", then Salmond says "Don't worry they will" that's not an answer, map out real plans if you want a vote....a county can't be run on his hopes
     
  6. Macro

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 9, 2006

    Posts: 5,696

    Oh come on... Seriously? I love you managed to say that with a straight face though :D ;)
     
  7. Weaver

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 9, 2008

    Posts: 722

    Location: It's Grimm up Norf


    Do you think the apparent apathy towards the date a little strange?

    I would be surprised if many Scots would know the precise date as its never been part of the schooling system, a boon from being governed by another country I suppose, but one thing you can be damn well sure about... ask any Scot who won?

    I was fortunate enough to be taught about it in high school. It was run as a bit of an experiment in some Scottish schools in and around 1975-80 so I know pretty much all about how Bannockburn wasn’t the end of it in fact going on for a further 10-14 odd years through Edward II his problems with the Lancaster’s and being put to death and then Edward III's campaigns etc etc.

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  8. Macro

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 9, 2006

    Posts: 5,696

    Not to mention Culloden... ;) Perhaps people are just wise enough to recognise sometimes it's just time to move on...

    Angela Merkel made an interesting observation a week or so ago, I'm paraphrasing as i've not looked it up but something along the lines of "borders are just the scars left by old conflicts". Quite an enlightened way of looking at it I thought. There's another quote on the Scottish independence thing was something along the lines of "There's something quite sad about the people in the north of a small island trying to build barriers and separate themselves from the people in the south of the same small island", sets some perspective from the outside world for me anyway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  9. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,687

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    Obviously everyone would like to cherry pick. I'd like free healthcare and no taxes, less work and more money.

    The point it, many of the of the options are only available to Scotland for picking as part of the UK.

    Resources don't have to split along the lines you're talking about. It just requires estimates of current known reserves, and a monetary value place on it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  10. Weaver

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 9, 2008

    Posts: 722

    Location: It's Grimm up Norf


    There is clearly something wrong with this type of thinking its very obviously missinformation. Its got nothing to do with the people in the north against the people in the south its to do with a diverging political ideaology.

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  11. Macro

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 9, 2006

    Posts: 5,696

    Glad to hear the entire independence thing is nothing to do with the people and rather just about politics, I suppose politicians have to try and do something to justify their cushy jobs to the man in the street... :confused::eek:

    Do you really think the average Scot really wants independence from the rest of the UK if you took away all the politics, campaigning and propaganda? Everything is lined up in the best possible way for the YES vote from global economic problems to Labour screwing themselves up into an unelectable option, The commonwealth games, Year of Scottish homecoming even 700 anniversary of Bannockburn to the point of the intimation that "you're not a true Scot if you don't take this chance to be rid of Westminster rule" and it's still struggling to get even a majority vote in the polls let alone an overwhelming landslide.

    Sure the politicians revel in this stuff as do political activists, nationalists and their supporters on both sides, but the average person? I dunno, seems not, people would rather get on with life and shock horror are broadly happy with being part of the UK and all the ups and downs that go with it. What's the saying, "there's little point in voting, the Government will always get in"?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  12. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,732

    The education system in Scotland is separate from the English system, let's leave conspiracy theories at the door for a change eh? I was taught about Bannockburn at school, but could I recall the date? Of course not and please bare in mind I live just a handful of miles from where it happened.
     
  13. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,867

    Location: Canada

    They want to be a bit wealthier. That's why the financial side argued is so much and why oil is so important to the SNP campaign.

    For most it's not nationalism, it's economics.
     
  14. Tonester0011

    Soldato

    Joined: Feb 27, 2012

    Posts: 6,586

    A scar that can be seen from space :)
    [​IMG]
     
  15. pgi947

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 25, 2011

    Posts: 16,672

    Location: Aberdeen

  16. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,867

    Location: Canada

    Out of interest it would be interesting to know how the yes guys think a currency union could be achieved (don't think it's been discussed, maybe I missed it?). How would both countries interests be represented?

    I see two options, both with a voting board:

    1: 50:50 voting power
    2: 90:10 voting power

    IMO the first breaks the cardinal rule the SNP and yes campaign has adhered to, a population split of non geographical things. The second option would mean Scotland had essentially no input in to the direction of the currency.
     
  17. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,687

    Location: Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge

    It's a misunderstanding to think that MPC voting weights are the main problem. The real problem is shred risk, without shared responsibility.

    I doubt the SNP are that worried about what voting rights they get apart from for political reasons. What they desire is the relative size and security of the rUK banking system, which is very advantageous to the Scottish economy.

    The banking system in the UK is underpinned by UK personal/business deposits, a huge amount of foreign capital, and the BoE as lender of last resort. And the whole system is underwritten by the government, funded by tax payers. This makes it relatively stable and trustworthy.

    This is really what the SNP are asking for a share of. A banking union, not so much a currency union. They can use the currency regardless of what the rUK government agree to.

    The trouble is, once you share a banking system, you share the economic pain of your partners when they run into problems.

    The Scottish economy could afford to take risks, which if go sour, would force the rUK to provided cheap liquidity to Scottish banks to prevent a UK wide banking crisis. This is exactly what's happened on the continent.

    For this reason, it's generally agreed that currency unions are a bad idea without a large degree of fiscal, political and regulatory harmonisation i.e. centralised decisions on how taxes are raised, debt is managed and the proceeds distributed.

    I.e. What we have at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  18. kitch9

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 13, 2008

    Posts: 6,484

    It amuses me that in order to promise "independence," Salmond is promising to create unions, and the people who he is promising to create unions with are the people who they already have a union with but won't be interested in being in a union in future if the terms change.

    You really couldn't make this stuff up.

    I don't know why he doesn't say, we'll have all the good stuff AND the oil, because at the end of the day thats what he has deluded himself into thinking will happen.
     
  19. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,980

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    The question of independence aside, the referendum is pretty much a win-win for Salmond.
     
  20. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    Well he has enforced probably the biggest cut in local authority spending we have seen since the introduction of council tax - while all past Scottish governments have been happy to centrally spend the increasing block grant.

    I'm not surprised councils are annoyed.

    Of course, the solution to this is independence. Somehow.

    Never mind that most of the problems that are being highlighted are within the scope of devolved powers...