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Poll: Scottish independence vote

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Biohazard, Sep 23, 2013.

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Scottish independence, yes or no?

  1. I'm Scottish and in favour of independence

    137 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. I'm Scottish and against independence

    167 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. I'm from another part of UK and in favour of Scottish independence

    273 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. I'm from another part of UK and against Scottish independence

    682 vote(s)
    54.2%
  1. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,733

    To be fair to Eddie I don't know anyone who's gone from Yes to No, since this was first proposed years ago. I do know several like myself who went from undecided to no though and so far nobody who's been undecided to yes.

    Truth is the biggest weakness so far has been the leaders of political parties and the campaigns. The SNP have had decades to put forward a solid argument, based on fact and have failed, where as the no campaign have essentially shot themselves in the foot so often they could be body doubles for Oscar Pistorius.
     
  2. [TW]Fox

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 155,447

    The thing that still amazes me the most is that some genuinely believe that everything that is wrong with current politicians is exclusive to Westminster politicians and that all such issues would vanish if they were Edinburgh politicians instead.
     
  3. 86JR

    PermaBanned

    Joined: Oct 19, 2007

    Posts: 6,322

    Location: .

    If Scotland gets its independence, will their citizens still want our benefits? I presume they won't be paying tax to the UK anymore?
     
  4. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 1, 2014

    Posts: 10,464

    Location: Aberdeen

    This is me. Unfortunately, the No side are a shambles, and many on the Yes side are vitriolic and hateful about anyone who dares to not be on their side.
     
  5. [TW]Fox

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 155,447

    Both sides appear to be running a shambles of a campaign based on throwing mud, scaremongering and complete guesswork.

    The entire thing is a farce, it's a travesty that the future of our nation is to be decided based on almost no objective and rational consideration whatsoever.
     
  6. Kenai

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 5, 2009

    Posts: 18,811

    Whilst I don't disagree it's a travesty, modern politics is entirely devoid of objective rational consideration through to its core, this was never going to be any different.
     
  7. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,973

    That's because the core independence base are fanatics. Fanatics do not change their minds.

    However, these people are a minority faction in the Yes vote. The only reason the polls are as close as they are is because the core base have been joined by a large number of people who are desperate for things to get better and think they might get it if they cut ties to Westminster.
     
  8. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,744

    Location: Inverkip

    Halfmad, care to explain what prompted you to go from undecided to no? Also nice to know I'm now being described as a fanatic, if wanting a better future for your son is fanatical, then so be it.
     
  9. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 26, 2009

    Posts: 20,896

    If you think this is bad then just wait until the 2015 UK EU referendum lol.

    You don't need a crystal ball to tell what a farce that will be considering the vast majority of the country have been taught everything they know about the EU by their page 3 newspaper >.>
     
  10. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,973

    Go on, then - what would it take to make you vote No?
     
  11. Shadez

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 23, 2002

    Posts: 2,808

    Location: Bristol

    So your idea of a better future for your son is to support splitting up of the most successful and stable union ever?

    Going from the one of the worlds most powerful and influential countries to a minor player easily bullied by the big boys?

    Having an unknown increase to the cost of living?


    Please enlighten me as to how a iScotland will bring a better future for your son. (please support with facts and not just SNP sound bites)
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  12. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,744

    Location: Inverkip

    I live on the West Coast, the removal of Trident from our waters means my area is no longer deemed a big bullseye by some global powers. It also allows the potential recovery of the oil that has been discovered off Arran (not allowed due to the subs) which would lead to a prosperous future for this area. That would be a direct benefit to the local jobs market and my son's future.
     
  13. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,733

    1. SNP have failed to make the case solidly for independence or given believable answers to questions on currency, membership of international institutions despite having several decades to seek proper legal advice to do so.

    2. I fear a rise in "ugly" nationalism post independence and having an English wife and already seeing the %^£$ she has to put up with I'd see myself leaving Scotland because of it.

    3. I don't see anything "wrong" with the UK that would be "better" in an independent Scotland. Oil revenue - more than likely wiped out by our debts or pension pots (or we could just remove them right? That wouldn't be fair though..) Lots of unanswered up in the air questions - refer to number 1 for the "haven't prepared bit".

    4. Unemployed and the lazy, we've too bloody many of them. I say this as someone who lived in Parkhead for 4 years commuting 5 hours a day to my work whilst every single one of my neighbours collected the dole and made not a bit of effort to find work. We cannot support this, we should not support it - and I consider myself a socialist - so that's hard for me to say!

    Now one BIG bonus I do see from Scottish independence which nobody seems to have woken up to would be immigration, we'd actually control it and encourage the right people here. This could arguably go towards helping number on the list but number 4 and the "taking our jobs" lot would no doubt have a hard time..

    Bottom line Eddie is I'm still listening but the NO campaign have a lot to do, especially with credible answers. I know Spain is always going to be opposed and don't believe anything a Spanish person says about our EU membership but Salmond has had a long time and seems to be producing little evidence of FACTS.

    I want the facts from both sides, but all I'm getting is sound bites and guess work.

    I think you're rose tinted glasses are on a bit there Shadez and I think you're arguably off the mark in terms of powerful/influential countries too, bottom line is if I was voting no it wouldnt' even factor in. Where has this power and influence got us in the past 20 years? WAR WAR and more unsuccessful WARS.
     
  14. Weaver

    Hitman

    Joined: Jul 9, 2008

    Posts: 722

    Location: It's Grimm up Norf


    I only pop in to this thread these days to laugh at some of the comments being made here so consider it a rarity that I am posting at all.



    The referendum is not... I repeat NOT a party political mater... It is a CONSTITUTIONAL matter...


    Do you agree YES or NO that countries should govern themselves?


    ------
     
  15. touch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 28, 2006

    Posts: 11,398

    Location: Sufferlandria

    Maybe you should provide some facts to support your own post first?
     
  16. Bear

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 24, 2002

    Posts: 12,484

    Location: Bucks and Edinburgh

    To be fair, he didnt say it was a party political matter, the SNP who have made independance the main issue for their party havent been able to solidly make a case for it. The people selling the idea hasnt been able to sell it to him.

    Our group of countries already govern ourselves. England no more governs itself than any other country within the UK. Would I like England to govern itself and be independant from the rest of the Uk ? No.
     
  17. Raumarik

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 14, 2003

    Posts: 13,733

    This isn't about the SNP it's about the YES campaign, who have had a looooong time to get the answers ready. Salmond runs it and the SNP are a big part of it, to deny that is daft.

    The question may be simple, but people are weighing up it's whether it would be BETTER OFF financially and culturally before they answer the overly simplified question. My heart shouts YES, but my brain says NO and right now it's winning.

    Again, rather than answer clearly, we have a change of topic.
     
  18. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,981

    It is true that the SNP are the main drivers of this campaign. Support has come from the Greens, the Scottish Socialists and some other minor parties. None of these parties, apart from the SNP, have any MSPs or even local councillors(afaik). Some previous Labour Party individuals have expressed support but nobody in the current party. A regional program stated that the key may be disgruntled Labour voters who have seen the party drift right.
     
  19. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,744

    Location: Inverkip

    The Reid Foundation have proposed a 30hr week in order to allow people more time off work and to get more people into work. The evidence points to it being productivity neutral and wages would remain the same for less time worked. Who wouldn't want every Friday off?

    It's a great idea and if properly costed and tested (Gothenburg are giving it a go) would be a real game changer for our society. Is more time with your family not something that will sway your decision?

    Ron, Labour For Independence are gaining a lot of momentum within the Scottish Labour Party with support said to be as high as 35%. Lots of Labour councillors stating they will vote Yes but the MSPs are toeing the party line.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  20. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    And you think the rest of us want doom and gloom?

    Everyone wants a better world, the question is whether Scottish independence will deliver it. The only arguments claiming that it will lack substance - if independence could really tackle poverty (for example) don't you think they might have told us how? But no, we just get told
    "we can do it with independence"
    "How?"
    "with the powers of independence"
    "How will you use those powers?"
    "To improve XXX"
    "How will you do that?"
    "with the powers of independence"
    lather rinse repeat.

    Did somebody change the question when I wasn't looking? Last time I checked, that wasn't the question being asked in September.

    A logical consequence of answering 'yes' to your new question is that we secede from the EU. A great many of our laws are now dictated by the EU restricting self-government.

    Now I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, but it flies in the face of the idea of exclusive self government.

    If you accept surrendering some sovereignty to Europe, then the concept of having some sovereignty held at Westminster is easier to discuss. On both levels, the question is "how much" and poll after poll after poll shows that Scotland wants a bit of everything. Some powers at Holyrood, some at Westminster and some in Brussels.

    Typically yes - trying the change the frame of the debate to make a Yes vote seem logical.

    They say no change in income for minimum wage workers (by putting them up onto the living wage first). Their plan involves everyone else taking a pay cut.

    It is also based on the premise that everyone is inefficient and works sub-optimally. Apparently reducing the number of hours worked won't change the work done because the hours given up are the suboptimal ones.

    The idea of a citizen's income is one I could see going further - it's a bit like negative income tax and similar concepts which I can see as alternatives to our current messy welfare system.