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Poll: Scottish independence vote

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Biohazard, Sep 23, 2013.

?

Scottish independence, yes or no?

  1. I'm Scottish and in favour of independence

    137 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. I'm Scottish and against independence

    167 vote(s)
    13.3%
  3. I'm from another part of UK and in favour of Scottish independence

    273 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. I'm from another part of UK and against Scottish independence

    682 vote(s)
    54.2%
  1. englishpremier

    Soldato

    Joined: Feb 15, 2003

    Posts: 6,874

    Location: Europe

    Nope neither of those give as much power away as Scotland does to Westminster.

    To be fair to him, the IMF, World Bank, and CIA figures all point to Ireland being richer than the UK. Things are certainly picking up there, but I don't know anyone who would give up work in the UK to move there for economic reasons.

    I'd love to see a strong successful Ireland again (this time spending within their means)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  2. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,538

    Location: Cambridge

    There are many people in those countries who are advocating a similar level of integration. And most of the countries are already close political unions of some sort.

    To suggest that the UK arrangement is an anomoly is ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  3. McBain

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 21,564

    Location: Lancs/London

    lol indeed.
     
  4. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 26, 2009

    Posts: 20,569

    WHAT!?! :eek:

    Salmond had THREE YEARS to answer the key questions but all he could come up with was "Trust me! I know what's best, you don't need to worry about the details, the will be unicorns and rainbows and everything will be wonderful"

    If he had been honest with people and said "Look the will probably be some hard times ahead, here's the problems, here's the solutions, it wont be easy, but if we soldier through we can create a much stronger Scotland and a much better future for ourselves and our children" then I genuinely believe he would have won.
     
  5. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 13, 2003

    Posts: 15,866

    Location: UK

  6. the_r_sole

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 25, 2010

    Posts: 2,943

    Difficult when one side said they wouldn't pre-negotiate or discuss the key issues, was quite and effective campaign strategy really; Refuse to discuss the issues and then point out how the other side doesn't have the answers.

    It would have been better for everyone that had a vote to know exactly what we were voting for but at the same time would have been political suicide for westminster politicians to do that so it was never going happen, the only people to lose out were the electorate imo.

    Agree that this should have been the way to do it, other people involved in the campaign made these points and made them well but they didn't have the same media coverage.

    It's disappointing for me just how quickly the better together lot slipped back into party politics and point scoring after the result was confirmed.
     
  7. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 13, 2003

    Posts: 15,866

    Location: UK

    A fine example by Emily Thornberry as John Swinney pointed out on Question Time.
     
  8. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    Like what?

    Currency union was set out. Westminster set out the expected basis for the division of moveable/liquid assets in line with international law. Some of the fine details would take a disproportionate amount of effort pre-referendum (like how Yes want surface ships and fast jets with no crew, no maintenance capability and no logistics chain).

    So much else depends on agreements that were not within the competence of Holyrood or Westminster. The EU is the big one.

    No negotiations would be needed to do basic things like set out future budgets on a (reasonable) assumption of per capita share of assets and liabilities. That was the big black hole in the whole plan. What might taxes be? What might benefits be? What might public service funding be? The numbers needed to work that out are all available.

    Perhaps because they were personal views and not those of the official campaign? The leadership of Yes are on record saying that the economic benefits would be quickly felt in the first few years.
     
  9. ubersonic

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 26, 2009

    Posts: 20,569

    Well, it's on now:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29390774

    The threat of Spain vetoing iScotland joining the EU must have played a part in some peoples voting decision, wonder if the will be a threat by Spain of the UK vetoing Catalonia joining...


    (for those who don't understand how it's relevant to the thread, this has been caused or at least accelerated by the Scottish referendum).
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  10. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,538

    Location: Cambridge

    Did you actually read the article? Spain haven't agreed to the referendum.

    No one threatened to veto anything. They simply said Scotland would have to apply to join, under the normal rules.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
  11. scorza

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 22, 2004

    Posts: 26,685

    Location: Deep England

    Spain won't recognise the result of this referendum (unless it's a no I guess) so there won't be anything to veto.
     
  12. grumpysculler

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Nov 23, 2009

    Posts: 1,195

    What is there is a really low turnout with a large majority?

    Catalan independence is not in the best interests of Spain as a whole and international law is explicit that the right to self determination comes second to territorial integrity. There is no basis in law for a unilateral declaration of independence. That why it took Russia's military intervention to get Crimea independent.

    Even now, Kosovo still isn't properly recognised as an independent state.

    If the City of London voted for independence in an unauthorised referendum, should the UK allow it? They'd be rich as heck and the rest of the UK would be stuffed. Catalonia isn't quite as extreme, but along similar lines.
     
  13. Rosbif

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2006

    Posts: 2,278

    Location:

    The only way to proceed with these matters is incrementalism. Part of what Catalonia has to do is assert that the 'will' of the people is overwhelmingly for independence. If they did vote overwhelmingly it brings the whole issue to the fore front, its like exposing the elephant in the room. It also brings into question the legitimacy of Spanish rule over Catalonia. It's going to be a symbolic event for them regardless of the outcome.
     
  14. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,538

    Location: Cambridge

    Unless it's agreed and administered by the Spanish authorities, it's hard to see why they should abide by the result. I'm not sure how far the limits of "self determination" stretch, but I can't see unilateral referendums getting much support from other nations.

    I also can't see Catalonia getting any support from any EU member states. Spain is broke, the split will cost them dear, they've already revived a boat load of money, any further destabilisation of Spain could surely upset what is already a flat lining euro zone economy.
     
  15. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,971

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    How long are disgruntled Yes voters going to bang this sorry old drum? Westminster, the EU and other institutions gave answers or made their position clear, Salmond/the SNP simply didn't like them and their only position was to claim them as scaremongering and bullying and insisted that they would decide what happens post independence, and get what they want (despite never actually setting out clearly what they want or how they would pay for it), other than independence.
     
  16. big_white_dog84

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 1,183

    The reaction of some yes supporters is really starting to grind on me. I was not tricked into voting no. The promise of extra powers came long after I had made up my mind.
    The yes campaign seems to already have decided that the promise won't be kept - even though lord smith's committee hasn't even sat down to talk yet. I would have been more concerned about Salmond keeping his promises to a yes campaign that contained both Brian Souter and most of the lgbt community.
     
  17. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,559

    Location: Wales

    Yes needed people to be in the mindset of "Rarrrr free Scotland!!!!" not "so how are we going to pay for all new Rarrring ?"
     
  18. RoboCod

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 19, 2004

    Posts: 17,059

    Location: On the Amiga500

    Just another one trick, one policy party. Meaning they will forever represent the fringe and not get in.
     
  19. xs2man

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 21, 2008

    Posts: 4,663

    The problem with that is their vastly increased membership since the vote. The SNP have made massive gains since the No vote, and I strongly suspect their position to be strengthened in the next Scottish Parliament as a result.

    Their threats of taking independence without another vote, just with a Hollyrood majority are frightening, as while a lot of those who turned out to specifically vote No may well return to business as usual, and not bother with general elections, those Yes supporters who have joined the SNP and will come out to vote in the next MSP elections. That's assuming they are still around to vote, as they may now be tracked down for their debt arrears since they are now registered on the electorate.

    Hopefully the SNP wont be as stupid as they are making out they are, but you never really know, what with it going to be Sturgeon in charge next time round.

    I suspect we haven't heard the last of this. Certainly not for the 15+ years we were hoping for anyway.
     
  20. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,971

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    I understand the worries, but what would they do? They can't legally decide to be independent, and the ramifications would not be good.