I don't know if you realise this but we are not robots! We are humans and as such we make some serious mistakes at times! Have you ever made any mistakes in your life? Maybe not to the extent that someone was killed but come on, we are only human buddy.
Sentencing of Car Driver Who Caused Motorcycle Death
- Thread starter Nomisf
- Start date
I don't know if you realise this but we are not robots! We are humans and as such we make some serious mistakes at times! Have you ever made any mistakes in your life? Maybe not to the extent that someone was killed but come on, we are only human buddy.
1st one should both be murder. Just because one survived shouldn't mean the sentencing guidelines is any different.
And second one both should be charged with speeding, the crime and action is the same.
If you're trying to point out that's not how it currently works, we are all well aware of that.
Absolutely, however you can not improve certain things. Situational blandness is not a lack if training, its not a defect in a person. It is simply being human.
Do you relay think a meaningful punishment for two different people both doing 35 in the same place, at same time if day. Should have such different punishments, just because someone stepped out in front of one of them and died.
The crime and actions they both took were identical. Neither could foresee the death more than the other.
The more meaningful way to improve would get police back out on the road and prosecute for everything they see bad, no only speeding and other on the spot fines.
Yes, and as such we need to try not to make mistakes that kill people. If you fail to do that, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to take part in risky activities.
As I said, it's a privilege, not a right.
But, as we are human, mistakes will happen in life.
This thread is quite depressing to read.
I would bet good money a large percentage of people posting in this thread may one day find themselves in a situation where they lost focus, attention, did something stupid or otherwise. The difference is what else is happening around you and whether you end up seriously hurting someone, killing someone or nothing but a squeaky bum moment which makes you think.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.
To mop up a few points in this thread:
There is a clear distinction between Dangerous and Careless driving.
I would assume (and hope) the sentence handed down will mandate a test retake following disqual.
Is a custodial sentence just? Why? A custodial sentence is not a magic bullet to solve lapses in judgement, concentration, not looking properly, mis-applying the controls of a vehicle and so on and so on. Do you think the driver in this scenario would have thought "Better look properly, I might be facing a jail term!" Of course not. She neglected to see the other motorist....it happens. It's not right and it's not fair but it was not an intentional neglect either.
I say this as a motorcyclist.
I would bet good money a large percentage of people posting in this thread may one day find themselves in a situation where they lost focus, attention, did something stupid or otherwise. The difference is what else is happening around you and whether you end up seriously hurting someone, killing someone or nothing but a squeaky bum moment which makes you think.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.
To mop up a few points in this thread:
There is a clear distinction between Dangerous and Careless driving.
I would assume (and hope) the sentence handed down will mandate a test retake following disqual.
Is a custodial sentence just? Why? A custodial sentence is not a magic bullet to solve lapses in judgement, concentration, not looking properly, mis-applying the controls of a vehicle and so on and so on. Do you think the driver in this scenario would have thought "Better look properly, I might be facing a jail term!" Of course not. She neglected to see the other motorist....it happens. It's not right and it's not fair but it was not an intentional neglect either.
I say this as a motorcyclist.
Agreed. If someone stabs you and you die, they should definitely only be charged with the assault.
Odd how there is a "Dangerous driving" and a "Death by dangerous driving" charge isn't it? Almost as though the outcome of the dangerous driving action made some kind of difference?
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There's actually a specific offence for what you describe.
It's called manslaughter, and that will be the charge.
@sin you less likely to hurt or kill anyone on a bike though other than yourself,
You should be charged with murder/man slaughter accordingly,a car or any type of vehicle is still a dangerous weapon just like a gun or a knife
You should be charged with murder/man slaughter accordingly,a car or any type of vehicle is still a dangerous weapon just like a gun or a knife
This is a ridiculous thought process.
Causing death by Careless Driving is not the same as Murder/Manslaughter, as a result the sentencing reflects that.
Causing death by Dangerous driving carries a much heftier sentence, in most cases custodial. It's still not on the same level as murder but much closer to manslaughter depending on the circumstances.
Trying to suggest causing death by a lapse in judgement is the same as murder is absolutely bonkers.
It's still death caused by someone else,you should take care when driving,I can understand if she had a heart attack or something like that
A ban and community service is a joke,I hope it haunts them to death,should have a lengthy driving ban as well 10+years min
A ban and community service is a joke,I hope it haunts them to death,should have a lengthy driving ban as well 10+years min
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how would stabbing be considered assault, it would be equivalent if murder under such a scheme regardless if they survived or not.And no it's not odd, its clear to see how our legal system arouse, it is far from perfect and we should strive for better.
Easy to say in hindsight. I bet the car driver wishes she could turn back time!
People so cruel on here. We are not perfect! Mistakes happen guys! Big mistakes too!
If you don't like it, petition for a law change.
I find it laughable you cannot even envisage yourself in the same situation. Easily done and you are the one facing your own 'murder' charges, 10 year ban and custodial sentence with the wrong combination of events. Seemingly you are a perfect driver without fault though.
The problem is that the law has to walk a line between being a deterrent and taking into consideration mistakes.
If we don't punish people who do stupid things because they are not concentrating then where is the incentive to concentrate. This is the sort of crime where there is no "right" punishment and you simply cannot make the sentence fit the outcome of the ladies actions.
What would you like to see happen in this case sin_chase? Do you think they got it spot on?
If we don't punish people who do stupid things because they are not concentrating then where is the incentive to concentrate. This is the sort of crime where there is no "right" punishment and you simply cannot make the sentence fit the outcome of the ladies actions.
What would you like to see happen in this case sin_chase? Do you think they got it spot on?
I don't think custodial would be appropriate given the small circumstances I am aware of.
I am not a magistrate, in possession of the full facts, the defendants conviction history or otherwise so it's pointless me throwing numbers around.
I think you're spot on with this.
If people are not going to take something like driving seriously enough, all of the time, then in my opinion we need to enforce appropriate consequences to help ensure that they take driving more seriously. Driving has become so routine and so necessary, that most are guilty of not paying 100% attention every time they get behind the wheel, but I don't think that should be an excuse. UK driving standards, and people's attitude towards driving need a swift kick up the backside in my opinion. If some people are made a scapegoat initially, then so be it.
Im speaking as someone who was ploughed off their bike back in August by a woman who was by her own admission, not paying attention, confused, and just didn't look properly. Although I did, and still do feel a certain sense of sorrow for her given how upset I know she is, I still think that there needs to be an outcome which acknowledges that there was careless behavior, and relays that to the public. The public don't understand the massive remorse and upset felt by drivers responsible for killing or injuring other road users, but they are capable of understanding the threat of losing their freedom, or having to partake in some other form of punishment that they don't want to do.
If I was careless with my firearms, then without doubt I would have these permanently removed from me without hesitation.
Be more careful. Look harder. Pay more attention. If you're not mentally or physically fit to drive on a given day due to whatever reason, don't drive.
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I mean just look at her face, does it look like she's regretting anything? or that she's sad about it? smiling with a cig in her mouth.. tbh her face tells a story and she looks like one of those drivers that would put someone in danger just "because" so no, I think the sentence is too light and she'll back on the road soon without any regret and will probably end up hurting/killing someone again.
Soldato
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I know that junction and how she'd have to have made the turn.
If she can't see a bike at over 100m, she needs a white stick and a Labrador!!
She did *not* look three times.
Fortunately, in most cases, this is not how the law works.
If we don't maintain our assets as agreed, we get a few grand fine.
If those unmaintained assets fail and pollute a river, we get fined MILLIONS.
If those assets fail and we derail a train, we'd be bankrupted by just one of the hundreds of compensation claims that would result.
If you're hauled up in front of a judge, you answer for your offense it is the consequences you're punished for.
If it were the actions, then what would be the point in making something illegal?
Things are illegal because of the consequences your actions resulted in, not the actions themselves. Actions are only the driver, punished to try and disuade the future reoccurrence of the consequences.
And of course everything is driven by emotion, including our own moral sense of right and wrong, which is what gave rise to crimes and laws in the first place. Logic has nothing to do with it.
Based on that, I'd say definitely ban all cars - Yer all blind!!!
Oh-kay then...
You mean 'complacency'?
Or is my motorcycle not exciting enough for you to see?
Police officers caught Little Johnny dropping a banana skin on the pavement in Newbury, today. His crime was a potentially lethal action, the consequences of which could have resulted in a death. The new 'Punish The Action' policies implemented earlier this year demand equal punishment, regardless of outcome, meaning that everyone is punished to the fullest extent of the law instead of allowing more lenient sentences for crimes that do not result in serious outcomes. Johnny was beaten to death over the course of five hours by officers armed with foam pads, which were brought in to replace guns and batons due to expensive lawsuits over police brutality"....
If she can't see a bike at over 100m, she needs a white stick and a Labrador!!
She did *not* look three times.
So you won't mind if I stab your kid through the face and walk away with a slapped wrist and £50 fine for the action of "carrying an offensive weapon in a public place" then, yeh?
Fortunately, in most cases, this is not how the law works.
If we don't maintain our assets as agreed, we get a few grand fine.
If those unmaintained assets fail and pollute a river, we get fined MILLIONS.
If those assets fail and we derail a train, we'd be bankrupted by just one of the hundreds of compensation claims that would result.
If you're hauled up in front of a judge, you answer for your offense it is the consequences you're punished for.
If it were the actions, then what would be the point in making something illegal?
Things are illegal because of the consequences your actions resulted in, not the actions themselves. Actions are only the driver, punished to try and disuade the future reoccurrence of the consequences.
And of course everything is driven by emotion, including our own moral sense of right and wrong, which is what gave rise to crimes and laws in the first place. Logic has nothing to do with it.
That same 'lapse of judgement' when pulling out of junctions and roundabouts is the cause of the "87% of motorcycle crashes involving another vehicle".
Based on that, I'd say definitely ban all cars - Yer all blind!!!
So charged with murder because you *didn't* kill someone??!!
Oh-kay then...
Situational Blandness?
You mean 'complacency'?
Or is my motorcycle not exciting enough for you to see?
No, I think we should punish them the exact same, while also doing away with Hazard Perception tests and having brakes on cars... because they're clearly not of any use, along with the sense of the jury and accident investigators to figure out that there was nothing direct to be done.
"Child beaten to death for littering!!
Police officers caught Little Johnny dropping a banana skin on the pavement in Newbury, today. His crime was a potentially lethal action, the consequences of which could have resulted in a death. The new 'Punish The Action' policies implemented earlier this year demand equal punishment, regardless of outcome, meaning that everyone is punished to the fullest extent of the law instead of allowing more lenient sentences for crimes that do not result in serious outcomes. Johnny was beaten to death over the course of five hours by officers armed with foam pads, which were brought in to replace guns and batons due to expensive lawsuits over police brutality"....