Should garages have a no win, no fee scheme?

[Andybtsn]

Hi all,

My MR2 went into the garage last Friday to have a quite severe MPG problem rectified. At first the garage thought it maybe a piston problem, however, some tests soon showed this wasn't the case. No faults were shown up on the diagnostics, nor a compression test. An emissions test was done and it went of the scale.

So, the garage told me it was a trial and error period of finding the problem, they have found a fault on the ECU which goes back to an "air valve" on the engine, this costs over £100 to buy anyway, then there's labour. They have instructed me that there not sure whether this will rectify the problem. I said go ahead with it and replace it, on the MR2 forums, I got lots of the same fix; the lambda sensor, and sometimes it never shows on the diagnostic test, even when its damaged. So I instructed the garage to change this to, again, this may not fix the car.

These parts will be fitted tomorrow so I will know if there successful or not, but if their not I am going to be paying this garage a lot in labour and parts for nothing in return.

Do you think garages should offer "no fix, no payment"?

I'm a bit worried to be honest, as my next point of call will be the Toyota, which could be mega bucks that I just don't have. Do you think I can say anything to the garage if the car is not fixed, discount? Anything?

I've used this garage before, and there always very welcoming, there not a "back street" garage, they help as much as they can and have kept me well informed of the car. I've only liased with one engineer which is nice, and he has been researching problems etc on the net.

What you think?

Thanks

 

[Morba]

why? they spend their time doing diagnostics. they should be paid for it.

BMW told me they would find the noise from under my bonnet, but they werent sure what it was, it would cost just over £100 an hour to find, then the labour and parts cost to fix. could be 1 hour could have been 5 or more, i decided to live with the noise.

now why should they spend say 4 hours not find the issue, only for me to then say 'ok ill take it back from you' and not pay them for the time?

 

[Muncher]

No chance. They have staff to pay whether it fixes your problem or not. It's not as if they said it would fix the problem, just suggesting work to be carried out which will help isolate the fault or remove causes of it.

 

[Andybtsn]

I guess maybe a bit extreme not having to pay anything! Garages would start just finding random faults, or lying about fixing things. Just a bit depressed about the whole situation really.

 

[[TW]Fox]

This is a really hard one. There are two schools of thought.

a) They are doing work for you, if it takes them 4 hours and they can't fix it, then they've still done 4 hours work, and should be paid. Then of course, the longer they take messing around 'trying' to find a fault, the more they get paid..

b) They are being paid to fix a car - it isnt your problem if they are incompetent/incapable of fixing the problem, perhaps they should train their staff. It's unreasonable to charge you for labour when their inability to do the job properly/actually find the problem meant your car isnt fixed. Consider it like a painter who turns up to paint your house, gets everything prepared, gets ready... then announces he cant paint the house, leaves, but bills you for the 2 hours labour preparing..

I am inclined to think along the lines of B - it should be no fix, no fee - and if you are not capable of fixing complex problems with cars like an MR2, dont take the job on, but business wise, A makes the most sense.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Yep i'll agree with the NBO2 sensor being broken, typical problems include loads of fuel being used and bad ideling on low engine loads since its running closed loop and reading the sensors values, when you stick your foot down it goes open loop and reads a default map, safe to say this should fix your problems.

 

[Morba]

This is a really hard one. There are two schools of thought.

a) They are doing work for you, if it takes them 4 hours and they can't fix it, then they've still done 4 hours work, and should be paid. Then of course, the longer they take messing around 'trying' to find a fault, the more they get paid..

b) They are being paid to fix a car - it isnt your problem if they are incompetent/incapable of fixing the problem, perhaps they should train their staff. It's unreasonable to charge you for labour when their inability to do the job properly/actually find the problem meant your car isnt fixed. Consider it like a painter who turns up to paint your house, gets everything prepared, gets ready... then announces he cant paint the house, leaves, but bills you for the 2 hours labour preparing..

I am inclined to think along the lines of B - it should be no fix, no fee - and if you are not capable of fixing complex problems with cars like an MR2, dont take the job on, but business wise, A makes the most sense.

in terms of B, they need to know what the problem is first, if you dont tell them so that they can fix the fault only then they cannot give you a guide as to time and cost. it would lead to garages not taking on work where the fault wasnt obvious.

 

[[TW]Fox]

in terms of B, they need to know what the problem is first, if you dont tell them so that they can fix the fault only then they cannot give you a guide as to time and cost. it would lead to garages not taking on work where the fault wasnt obvious.

Garages work on consumers inability to fix problems for themselves. Most people who can say 'Yea, tis the idle control valve mate' could probably replace said part themselves. The most that most garages will get from a customer is 'It makes THIS noise' or 'It does this'.

It's up to them to diagnose and fix the problem.

This is the problem really, a garages ability to fix your car depends entirely on their competency - from a consumer point of view, it's not reasonable to have a big bill and not have your car fixed simply becuase the garage isnt good enough - their staff training/skill is THEIR problem, not yours.

 

[The Running Man]

but still your paying their expertise to diagnose the car, and they are not always straightforward answers - so it can take an hour of labour for them to check the most likely culprits, and this is an hour they are not spending money fixing someone else car, so are likely to want compensation for it.

some garages do diagnose for "free" but something like the prob this guy is having obviously seems more deeply rooted and a bit of a bugger to resolve.

 

[[TW]Fox]

but still your paying their expertise to diagnose the car

Which they didn't do...

, and they are not always straightforward answers - so it can take an hour of labour for them to check the most likely culprits, and this is an hour they are not spending money fixing someone else car, so are likely to want compensation for it.

Thats fine, if they then find the fault and fix it... But often they dont, yet bill you anyway.

Imagine for a second you are now an IT noob. Your PC breaks. You ring me, say 'my PC wont turn on help' and I come and have a look, spend 2 hours fiddling with it, tell you i cant fix it, and ask you for £100. Would you be a bit annoyed?

 

[CypherPunk]

I’ve always looked at it like this, if the client knows what's causing the problem then it should be sorted quickly without any hassle, if the problem is simple enough that the client knows what’s causing it then any mistakes are my fault and the client shouldn’t be billed for them.

However if the client doesn’t know what’s causing the problem then I’m being paid not just to fix whatever is broken but also to find out what’s broken and what has caused it, and if it takes 4 hours checking things and replacing things that could be broken then unfortunately the client is going to have to pay for the parts and my time.

I can see what Fox is saying, however any decent garage will tell the client beforehand what the charges are and what they think of the problem, then the client can decide if they want the garage to look at the problem or not. As long as the garage keeps the client informed and doesn’t carry out any work unauthorised then I can’t see the problem.

 

[[TW]Fox]

To clarify, I have no issue with charges for diagnostic work if the problem is fixed. If it takes 4 hours to find whats wrong and an hour to fix it, 5 hours labour, no worries.

Its when you get a bill and drive the car away with the fault still present that I disagree with. It's wrong. You got nothing for your money bar a bloke saying 'No idea'. You had no idea what was wrong either, thats why you took it to the garage..

 

[Siliconslave]

i've been stung with this befor - problem with the car makeing really weird noises coming onto boost in the daihatsu cuore. Took it into the garage - £600 and 1 month later and they basically turn around and say "we don't know - could take the engine apart and have a nose but thats gonna cost a load" so give up and take it home. Sits on my parent's drive for a month or so till i take it down to the local garage who find the fault and fix it for £170 same day!

Now why should i pay for all sorts of messing around cause they can't do their job properly - if you go into a shop and buy something, say a knife, and it doesn't do what its supposed to would you just say "well i guess i payed for all the time and research, materials and manufacturing that went into this knife which won't cut through melted butter" or would you take it back and get your money back? If you payed someone to paint your house and they re-pave your drive which was fine would you pay them? so why should it be the same at the garage?

 

[SgtTupac]

why? they spend their time doing diagnostics. they should be paid for it.

BMW told me they would find the noise from under my bonnet, but they werent sure what it was, it would cost just over £100 an hour to find, then the labour and parts cost to fix. could be 1 hour could have been 5 or more, i decided to live with the noise.

now why should they spend say 4 hours not find the issue, only for me to then say 'ok ill take it back from you' and not pay them for the time?

off topic - But you still need it looked at? if ya do pop me an email - [email protected] - Im a lot cheaper than BMW and local

 

[PMKeates]

off topic - But you still need it looked at? if ya do pop me an email - [email protected] - Im a lot cheaper than BMW and local

You live on a cider farm too?

And I agree with Fox - no fix, no money. Any garage chain with enough **** and the ability to start something like this could end up with the business of half the country...

 

[Morba]

off topic - But you still need it looked at? if ya do pop me an email - [email protected] - Im a lot cheaper than BMW and local

ive got used to the noise now, i think i figured out what the issue is. theres part of the steering rack that is hollow, but generally is plugged by some cork. the cork has came out, now being so close to the front of the exhaust pipe, it gets noisy, which makes a rattling sound, but its actually the air resonating in the hollow area mentioned a moment ago.
atleast, from what one person was telling me of the construction of the steering rack, it seems to match!
that could be cowdung tho

now when putting my foot down, i ignore the 'rattle' and enjoy the 6 pot singing

 

[lordrobs]

Do you think garages should offer "no fix, no payment"?

That would put Peugeot main dealers out of business

I agree with Fox in that if the garage does nothing but say "Don't know" you shouldn't pay a penny however if a garage says it could be a,b or c and you say ok start with a and it ends up being c you should have to pay for all the work done. At the end of the day you don't have to have the work done (although I can understand that its not always easy to take your car elsewhere depending on the problem)

I'm very lucky in that I have a trusted family friend who looks after all our cars and charges very little for his time. Infact it got to the stage where we felt we had to bung him some extra as he was doing himself out of money so much! So I always feel confident that he will do his best for us.

 

[Stiff_Cookie]

The idea that garages should not charge when they cant fix the problem seems ridiculas to me. Just because a persons job is to fix cars doesnt mean he or she knows EVERYTHING there is to know about EVERY car that may come into his garage. One BMW could have a multitude of problems while the same model and year could 'live' problem free for 10+ years.

Part of fixing a car is troubleshooting and mechanics should be paid for the time and effort they put into troubleshooting the problemm It is up to the consumer to find a mechanic they can trust or they can fix the problem themselves.

I wonder how many IT techs would be confident with having a policy of 'no fix, no fee'. And those that would I wonder how many would actually fix the problem rather than the solution.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The idea that garages should not charge when they cant fix the problem seems ridiculas to me. Just because a persons job is to fix cars doesnt mean he or she knows EVERYTHING there is to know about EVERY car that may come into his garage

So don't take on work you dont know if you can complete.

If you pay me to do something, you should expect me to either complete the work, find the fault, or not charge you.

You are, in effect, paying for nothing. Ok, the garage used labour, but it was of nil benefit to you whatsoever, so in the real world, you paid for nothing.

 

[Confused]

If the garages did a "no fix no fee" then they would have to increase their prices on the labour that they do charge.

It's like all these "no win no fee, you get 100% of the compensation injury lawyers because you were a muppet and fell over a paving slab because you weren't looking where you were going"

They don't actually take anything from the money received before you get it - but instead they'll charge you more than a usual lawyer would - because they have to take money from those who pay, to cover the time spent working for the ones who don't pay.


If a mechanic in a garage spent 4 hours a day fault-finding and didn't find anything, and 4 hours working on a paid-for job - the garage is losing out on 50% of it's income during that day - and statistically they would have to charge the paying person twice as much as before to break even.


It may sound good when you've got a fault that can't be diagnosed/fixed - but you'll soon pay for it when you do have a problem, and then you'll be complaining of the huge increase in labour charges!