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Should NHS doctors and nurses be paid more?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by ver01@, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. PikeyPriest

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 21, 2004

    Posts: 1,050

    Doing private work on nhs time is a major disciplinary and GMC offence. I’ve not seen it happen, but I’ve heard of at least 2 consultants dismissed and referred to the GMC.

    The problem with the system is that despite having a 48 hour week, many specialties breach this week in and out. I will be in from 7:30 until 6:30-7 Monday to Friday. I then have oncalls shifts 8-8:30, nights and weekends on top. I’m also doing a distance masters, involved in teaching students and finalising 2 papers for submission to journals.

    Many specialties require this level of work to be employable at the end of your training and rely on your goodwill to be able to deliver the service.
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,251

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is its hard to have a realistic and honest discussion about pay when the expectation is to set pay at a national level based on a one sized fits all approach, that totally ignores all the normal rules of pay and benefits setting.

    Level of pay normally varies by location, role, availability of staff and so on, where the correct pay is the right amount to attract and retain good employees without spending more than necessary (because budgets are a zero sum game, excess spending on staff results in less spending on other things).

    There are certainly some people in the NHS who are underpaid, and there are certainly some people who are overpaid.
     
  3. FishFluff

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 7, 2003

    Posts: 4,859

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    You mean like pretty much every other large organisation that employs staff across the UK?
     
  4. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,251

    Location: Plymouth

    Most large organisations have flexibility of location on their side, certainly for their skilled staff.

    The NHS on the flip side has inflexible labour requirements (a set number of operational and support staff are required) , and inflexible location requirements (eg you can't move the operation or the support roles to a cheaper part of the uk, or to where the necessary expertises are over supplied).

    The NHS doesn't run like a normal business, so direct comparisons don't work without acknowledging that. Hence look at the needs and market behaviours.
     
  5. platypus

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2003

    Posts: 38,827

    Location: Rhône-Alpes+Cambridge

    This is what I was going to post in a nutshell.
     
  6. Bluntwrapped

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 20, 2011

    Posts: 3,092

    Location: Livingston

    I believe if you listen carefully in parliament, you’ll hear someone say ‘shouldn’t we just outsource it?’
     
  7. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 10,736

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    I’d outsource parliament to Brussels if we could!
     
  8. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,317

    Location: Lincs

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47616491

    And the Government's response?

    Like we have any faith in the Govts ability to tackle long term complex issues. Especially since..

    And with GPs it seem simply trying to recruit more isn't the solution

     
  9. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 23,956

    Location: Rutland

    The standard of current GP recruits is very poor largely. It's not simply making more places available, but ensuring the candidates are of sufficient quality and trained appropriately. Which isn't really happening.
     
  10. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,251

    Location: Plymouth

    So we need a two pronged approach, improved training and to stop preventing 90% of qualified candidates who apply from actually being educated and trained to do the job.

    There's probably also a case for forcing both doctors and patients to start to modernise their practices though, as the current approach is like using network research experts to do first line tech support...
     
  11. muon

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 8, 2006

    Posts: 17,373

    Location: London

    That's missing the massive pension amount that results. Otherwise it's misleading to include the annual allowance tax charge and employee contribution.

    The annual allowance tax charge is kicking in because the annual pension contribution exceeds £40K. This is real money the person will get at retirement.

    It's easy to make that chart look much better, if civil servants only care about take home pay. Remove the very generous pension scheme.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  12. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 23,956

    Location: Rutland

    50% roughly of our current GP trainees aren't fit to look after a dog, I find it quite worrying.

    Interestingly our region only managed to fill 40% of our first year training posts this year. So that's a decade of rota gaps.
     
  13. tamzzy

    Sgarrista

    Joined: May 26, 2012

    Posts: 8,246

    :D at least it's not only us med regs thinking the same too. I bet our bosses say the same about us though...lol
     
  14. Teh_Next

    Gangster

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 484

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    Sorry for the late post but those are terrible wages for their professional bracket and poor compensation for their workload.
    An HGV driver averages approx. 30k. In my world health professionals should be paid more. They studied to be where they are, they have continued learning on top of their jobs so they can retain their registration and they also need to pay from their own pocket to register.
    Their wages are terrible for what they do.
     
  15. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 23,956

    Location: Rutland

    I don't have a boss anymore, it's very weird as a consultant. Yes there's someone ostensibly managing me, but it's very different to being a trainee.
     
  16. Sasahara

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 12, 2009

    Posts: 3,693

    The average full time qualified nurse is around £31k. So about the same as the HGV driver. Both are skilled jobs. Both can cause death if they fail at said job. Both are required for the general population to live. Without HGV drivers we'd likely starve and doctors/nurses wouldn't get the resources to do their job.

    https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Nhs/salaries?job_category=mednurse
     
  17. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 896

    That is the average wage for a full time nurse yes, but that also takes in all the nurses in management positions who can have quite high wages as well. Generally it will take quite some time for a nurse to reach that salary.
     
  18. Sasahara

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 12, 2009

    Posts: 3,693

    It's the average, the top end get way more.

    Also HGV drives don't all get £31k, but the range is smaller.
     
  19. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 896

    And as an example. I work as a Health Care Assistant at a hospital. On a monthly basis I will often equal (and sometimes go higher) than some of the nurses wages I work with. Specially the newly qualified nurses can quite regularly make less a month than me.
     
  20. Sasahara

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 12, 2009

    Posts: 3,693

    That's not an example if you don't say what you earn. And I don't expect you to disclose that. :)

    Newly qualified nurses will be below the average of course, but they only make up a small number of all nurses and their wages will go up when they gain experience.
    Also they will be getting much better pension provision than the average HGV driver.