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Should NHS doctors and nurses be paid more?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by ver01@, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 925

    I range between 14-1500 a month after tax on average. My starting wage though is almost 4k less than a newly qualified nurse though.
    We do get a very good pension though, I must admit that.
     
  2. Teh_Next

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 663

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    No one is disputing the worth of HGV drivers, every job is of importance. The three year degree of a qualified nurse is defacto evidence of a higher skill set than that of an HGV driver. I passed my class 2 in a 4 week time frame. The skill set is not comparible.
     
  3. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 20, 2004

    Posts: 8,225

    Location: Düsseldorf

    While I do agree nurses don't get paid enough basic, (ex was a nurse on children's ward....ain't no money going to make that job easy)...they do at least have lots of scope for very well paid supplemental work, doing agency shifts, working bank holidays etc, brings in a lot of extra cash.
     
  4. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 24,100

    Location: Rutland

    Almost endless scope for extra work because no one fully staff wards as things stand.
     
  5. Teh_Next

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 663

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    And most nursing and AHP staff will do extra work at a decreased pay rate as they work on their staff banks. The NHS ends up with Band 6 and 7 highly skilled and experienced members of staff working for band 5 wages . Most nurses that value their profession baulk at the idea of agency work. Odds are if you have agency staff they know nothing about the patients, nothing about the speciality of the ward they're doing a "shift" in and have a little in way of completed competencies to actually help.Half of them won't even put up a simple saline IV. They end up being glorified clinical support workers. The scope for extra work is definitely there but more often than not at a lower rate.
     
  6. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 925

    I find that with agency staff it really varies, but it also seems to be different rules in different Trusts. When I started in my Trust agency nurses were not allowed to set up IV fluids/medications unless they had gone through the training within the Trust. I also come across plenty of agency nurses who have been Band 6-7 in different Trusts and specialities but go for agency due to the flexibility (and money). And on every shift every nurse should get a handover of their patients, how much they care to pay attention to it is a different matter though. In my ward I have a couple of nurses that have been working here for years that I every day wish I have not to work with as they are worse than most agency nurses we have here. And depending on where you would work the Band 6/7's will not be that highly skilled either.
     
  7. Teh_Next

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 663

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    There can be issues with under-performing band 6/7 but TBH where I work it's being routed, unfortunately that usually means side stepping them to equal pay bands but different roles, if they're not performing in the clinical environment it's up to the staff to raise concern and the management to deal with. It shouldn't be common place these days.

    I should mention I'm AHP and not nursing staff, though my wife is a nurse manager and I hear her grieviences all the time. Yeah, I know, both of us in the NHS and it's like being married to the NHS, ultra boring couple! :D
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,223

    But appreciated by many Id say.
     
  9. Teh_Next

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 663

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    Hey, thanks man.
    That actually made me feel nice.
    Thanks dude. :cool:
     
  10. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 925

    Unfortunately my Trust is pretty bad in weeding people out but very good in promoting people upwards without them being competent or experienced enough. Even if staff raises concerns it is very difficult to get anything done about it. Don't know how it is in other Trusts but here we are very badly supported by the management in regards of anything. We have policies and proformas for patients for certain wards/areas that doesn't get followed for various reasons (just tonight a Doctor refused to sign a proforma to state that a patient was suitable for a certain ward...)

    I must ask what is AHP as I don't recall to have come across that title until now.
     
  11. Teh_Next

    Hitman

    Joined: Nov 3, 2018

    Posts: 663

    Location: The other side of The Gap

    Allied Health Professional.
    Your OTs, PTs, SaLTs and dietitians mainly.
     
  12. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 925

    Ah, fair enough then. That makes me remember some "Chartered Allied Health Professional" logotype on one of our former PT's polo shirt he had at work.
     
  13. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,523

    Well, AIUI, US healthcare costs around three times as much per head as UK NHS care.

    There are some things the US does better (Provided you have the appropriate cover, You go into a US hospital in the morning and you will know what the problem is by lunchtime! Not like the UK where you have a scan for a potentially lethal condition and have to wait months for the results to come through), and there are some things (And in particular the universal provision aspect) that the NHS does better.

    And yet, on average, people in the US do not live any longer than people in the UK.

    The main reason why US health care is more expensive isn't because of expensive tech, it is because of expensive people.

    Healthcare workers in the US get paid far more than the UK. But the figures suggest that this doesn't really mean that they get a better overall service for all that extra expense.

    So perhaps the answer to the OP question is actually NO. Our healthcare is actually as good as anybody else's in practice. Why should we pay more? How would we benefit? :p

    I would however be willing to pay more to ensure that we were more self reliant. The NHS is dangerously reliant on cheap foreign workers. this is bad for us, and also bad for the countries that these healthcare workers have traveled from.

    But perhaps that is a separate issue.
     
  14. neviditelny

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 15, 2015

    Posts: 925

    The main reason why NHS is so reliant on foreign workers is because governments here have given it such a bad appeal to work within health care. Really bad wages, working hours can be really awful as well, extremely high demands and expectations etc. But the foreign staff (specially nurses) are generally really good trained though.
     
  15. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,433

    Location: Plymouth

    Given that the uk and the USA both scrape the bottom of the developed world in healthcare outcomes, albeit for different reasons, I'm not sure that's a very useful comparison.

    We should compare against systems with the best outcomes, not other failing ones.

    Before anyone starts, please note that this is not a criticism of NHS staff, who try their best within the structural limitations, but of the structure itself.
     
  16. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 24,100

    Location: Rutland

    We all feel the same. It's not hard to see the corners cut on a daily basis.

    The push to move towards an American system through apathy and neglect of healthcare is painful.
     
  17. jjgreenwood

    Gangster

    Joined: May 21, 2010

    Posts: 461

    From an observational point of view I think the system is getting more expensive as the population ages but tax receipts are not increasing by the same amount. Unfortunately it's a perfect storm of the baby boomers getting old and now needing expensive medical care and their pensions but there isn't the money to fund it. I'm sure that if I ever get to the age to retire (70? 80?) then by that point I'll also need medical insurance as the NHS will have collapsed.

    I'd agree that NHS workers aren't paid enough but given the number of them any pay rise will inevitably end up in staff cuts. Simply we cannot afford this system under current taxation levels. Of course if we increase taxes then that will affect housing affordability causing a crash in house prices or a 2 tier society of even greater unfairness as the old sit on huge housing wealth, pensions and free healthcare whilst the young struggle to earn due to the tax burden.

    Perhaps the only thing to do is kill off personal tax allowance for pensions - but if you do that then you undermine all the promises made.

    There is no easy solution to this problem, eventually I think they are going to have to replace NI with a tax for the NHS and one for your Pension to reflect what is required. This will need to move back to individual rather than collective responsibility and managed properly but that is very difficult when the existing system needs new money to flow in to stay operational. In all honesty it was a bad idea from the start to fund it the current way.
     
  18. wesimmo

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 19, 2012

    Posts: 1,829

    You don't have to cause the collapse of the housing market if you tax people that can afford it. Introduce more tax bandings, if you earn over a million it's 50%, over £5 million it's 60% or whatever the number would be.

    Increase inheritance tax on the super wealthy and close loopholes.
     
  19. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,433

    Location: Plymouth

    It's not just a funding issue. In fact, we've done the experiment of massively increasing funding under labour, and it didn't result in any meaningful, trend changing improvements in outcomes.

    That's not to say I disagree that we need to spending more on healthcare, we do. But simply spending more money doesn't work.
     
  20. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,433

    Location: Plymouth

    This sort of attitude is part of the problem. The rich already pay the vast majority of net income, and they are not an infinite resource. And that's without mentioning the fundamental injustice of the state confiscating property at varied rates just because it is popular.

    The uk as a whole needs to lose this adversarial attitude about paying for things.