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Significant victory for civil liberties

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ex-RoNiN, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. Ex-RoNiN

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,354

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7710310.stm

    The national DNA database has been defeated in the House of Lords. That leaves us with the ID Cards and the associated database with those.

    Is this a sign that the data madness will stop? Or will other ways of getting our data be thought of and implemented in the near future, in spite of parliamentary controls?
     
  2. gillywibble

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007

    Posts: 52,814

    Location: Tamworth, UK

    Well, that comes as a surprise.
     
  3. Strife212

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 15, 2007

    Posts: 16,545

    This database would actually have been useful unlike the ID one.
     
  4. shauncr91

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 28, 2007

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    Location: Sheffield

    My thoughts exactly.
     
  5. Indy500

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 7, 2005

    Posts: 17,509

    The DNA database started before any debate on the leglisation so I'm not convinced this will prevent it.

    In what sense? DNA evidence isn't entirely foolproof you know...
     
  6. scorza

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 22, 2004

    Posts: 26,685

    Location: Deep England

    No-one was proposing that DNA evidence alone should be enough to secure a conviction.

    ID cards are useful too, and should be not be feared. Take a look at the Estonian ID card system for some of the benefits that it will offer to Britain and her citizens in the information age. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ID_card
     
  7. Surfer

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 31, 2005

    Posts: 11,179

    Location: Glasgow

    probably a stupid question but...

    can dna be planted at a crimescene?

    basically massive dna database millions of persons dna on it + muppets who lose secure files on trains etc

    = ?
     
  8. Indy500

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 7, 2005

    Posts: 17,509

    Oyster is practically becoming the same thing here (especially with regards to public transport and as a payment system). As for the electronic voting scheme, a system of that nature is open to fraud far more than a typical paper ballot.

    Sometimes it doesn't even need to be planted. That said, criminals could use it to frame innocents that are on the database.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  9. Von Smallhausen

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Aug 1, 2004

    Posts: 12,584

    Location: Tyneside

    From a DNA database, no. It is a myth.
     
  10. Indy500

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 17,509

    You're saying the samples aren't kept?
     
  11. Von Smallhausen

    Man of Honour

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    Location: Tyneside

    It doesn't make a difference if they are or they are not.

    If anyone can tell me how a DNA sample from two cotton buds or DNA extracted from a hair root in a police custody area is then used to frame someone then I am all ears.

    Out of curiosity I asked one of the senior CSI's who thought the same as me and his knowledge of forensic science far exceeds mine.
     
  12. Surfer

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 31, 2005

    Posts: 11,179

    Location: Glasgow

    ahh ok. Theoretically though...is it possible? Might it be possible in future - with enhanced extraction methods, better technology etc.

    What im saying ok atm you're saying no it cant be done. (ie your dna cant be misused so you get accused of a crime based on dna evidence)

    But is the reason why based on our own limitations or is it just theoretically not possible? Because in future the DNA data will still be there yet our ways of using it will have multiplied with our increased scientific knowledge and suchlike.
     
  13. Indy500

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 17,509

    I simply do not hold the same confidence in the system and its employees as you do. I see its potential for misuse. It also blurs the line between innocent and guilty because innocents on the database are more likely to be suspected of a crime.

    You want the word of a forensic scientist on the DNA issue? Here's one then:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/28/ukcrime.forensicscience
     
  14. starfighter

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 4, 2008

    Posts: 4,934

    Location: Manchester.

    Nice 1.
     
  15. Indy500

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 7, 2005

    Posts: 17,509

    Who was that aimed at?
     
  16. starfighter

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 4, 2008

    Posts: 4,934

    Location: Manchester.

    your mum
     
  17. Energize

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 12, 2004

    Posts: 27,857

    Easily, just get someones hair. You can then extract the dna and put it through a polymerase chain reaction to create as much dna as you like.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  18. scorza

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 22, 2004

    Posts: 26,685

    Location: Deep England

    Oyster is very far from being the same thing - it does not prove your identity, it can only be used in London, and even then not on the trains.

    Estonia's e-voting system has been tested successfully in two different elections now. I can't see how it's any more insecure than paper postal ballots.

    And they could frame someone by obtaining a sample of DNA through other means. Is your problem with using DNA as evidence, or the National DNA database?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
  19. Indy500

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 17,509

    It is linked to your details depending on how you applied for one.

    Electronically changing some figures is easier than stuffing boxes. Postal fraud is somewhere in the middle.

    The DNA database contains 4+ million samples. The difference with "other" means is they'd have to force the person to give a sample...which only the police can do. Or at the very least, be around them physically.

    Read the forensics professor's article I linked to above, that explains the problem with DNA as evidence and the database.
     
  20. Von Smallhausen

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Aug 1, 2004

    Posts: 12,584

    Location: Tyneside

    For the record I am not a fan of big brother politics that this government seem hell bent on and I am not comfortable with people who are not charged with an offence having their DNA taken.

    For example, 2 children have a fight outside of school and are arrested. Even if there is insufficient evidence to proceed or it isn't deemed being in the public interest then you have DNA samples of them on a national database. Is this neccessary ?

    As you say, there is potential for misuse but that applies to almost everything but again I don't see how a police DNA swab can be misused.?

    It has to be said though that DNA is an invaluable tool in the fight against crime although it isn't the be all and end all.

    My confidence in the system is such because I work within the criminal justice system and I know the pros and cons of DNA evidence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008