So Nick Clegg is talking rubbish again.

Income and wealth however are completely different. There is often a good correlation but not always.
Compare a 50 year old "normal" worker, has paid off his mortgage and owns outright his £250k house (he bought it cheap 25 years ago). He earns £25k a year. Pays a low amount of tax on his £25k income, and a very low % if you consider his wealth (ie £250k asset of his house)
The other guy is a superstar recently graduate banker, has just started earning £200k a year in the city. Hes paying off his student loan, and also a lot of tax on his "high" income. Hes got no wealth, hes renting a flat and spending the vast majority of what he takes home right now as hes been used to living on nothing and is living the hig life. His % tax to assets is absurd.

Our current system basically is the above, for individuals the vast majority of tax take is based on income not assets (or wealth). If your assets do not generate income then they are just about tax free, say your house goes up in value by £25k in a year (like happened to a lot a few years back) your wealth has gone up, but you have paid no tax. Theoretically you could have sold the house and pocketed £25k (lets ignore the somewhere to live element).
Over a medium term period you do get typically a very good correlation between income and wealth but it takes time, not only for people to convert income into wealth, but also for some assets to increase in value (property/land etc).

But wealth is taxable. Capital Gains Tax being the most obvious one on the sale of appreciated wealth (as per your house example). Stamp duty is also tax on the accumulation of wealth (of which property likely makes up the largest portion of wealth in the UK, given that home ownership is around 90%). For all other forms of wealth, there is Inheritance Tax which is levied upon the total value of your estate at death, provided it is over a certain threshold.

Sure, you don't pay for your wealth whilst it is wealth, but as soon as you want to turn it into something that you can actually spend you're clobbered by the grey-suited ledger-wielders at HMRC.

For me the biggest and most fundamental issue is do we want a rebalancing to take place on income vs wealth as a general population. Associated issues then spring up, high wealth is not a guarantee of ability to pay. If your only asset was a £500k family home which you own outright but a retired and just scraping by on your pension and the system suddenly changed to make you owe £10k tax per year due to your wealth how would they pay it? Would it be fair they may have already paid loads in income tax.

The simplest way to collect tax is on earnings, by the very fact you have just earn't it, deducting a chunk at source means you must have the ability to pay it.

If you did move to a wealth based system then lets assume you have to fill in a form, list all property, shares, savings, vehicles(?), company shares or value of own sole trader(?), then those assets could be assessed for tax. How would you police it, how would you value the items without a quick simple market price? Lots of work = significant people to do the work (tax men)

This is an interesting point. Although not commonplace elsewhere, if you are caught committing certain crimes (speeding is the one that springs to mind) you can be asked for a statement of wealth by the court. This requires you to detail your personal wealth, including properties and business interests, so that you may be fined according to your wealth rather than your income.

Obviously, this is a rather exclusive way of taxing wealth as you need to commit a criminal offence, but the wherewithal to do it is already in place. I'm sure this method also comes into use when calculating retroactive taxes due, a possible example being the closure of certain tax loopholes.

What about when markets crash, everyones wealth declines = less tax, or possibly no tax depending if you tax wealth increase or wealth as an absolute.

The same issue with wealth will happen as with income tax, the richest are those most likely to be able to afford to manipulate the tax by structuring to avoid. Eg if its a personal wealth tax then setup a company to own your mansion and pay a peanuts rent. When completing the form you own no property wealth to be taxed. Company wouldnt earn any profits so this is where you would have to again be taxed on shares owned or you could simply avoid the wealth tax this way.

Not strictly true, certain types of wealth depreciate in a market crash, others appreciate. Precious metals and commodities are the prime example of wealth that appreciates when markets crash, whilst property usually depreciates as liquidity dries up. For everybody in a crash who loses, there are those who have won. Excluding the 2008 scenario, this has been true of every market crash.

As a broader point, I think it's important to remember that income tax rates are seldom paid at their stated rate. Depending on an individuals circumstances, their income may suggest 20% income tax but due to something like a company car their marginal rate of tax is higher as their personal allowance is reduced. Generally speaking, the higher your income and wealth, your affairs become all the more complicated and you can start facing marginal tax rates of over 60%.

It appears to me that due to the insane complexity of the UK tax code, politicians have carte blanche to bang on about how people should pay more tax without actually having a working understanding of the tax system. Rather than having the endearing qualities of a child, Clegg's ignorance is an affront to anybody who actually bothers to sit down and work out what they're paying each year to HMRC.
 
Yeah i forgot, us the 99% have been forced to take out crippling loans and maxed out our credit cards at gun point by evil greedy bankers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I maybe proved wrong but I don't think the global economic crisis was caused by Joe Bloggs not paying his credit card bill or missing a mortgage payment.
 
Personal responsibility died long before 1997 — It was Thatcher and Reagan that set the precedence. New Labour just continued the trend of less regulation and more lending/borrowing.

You really need to check your history books! Thatcher got us out of the last huge mess Labour left us in and advocated personal responsibility and not being dependent on the state. Labour threw money at eveything that moved until we were flat broke.
 
I maybe proved wrong but I don't think the global economic crisis was caused by Joe Bloggs not paying his credit card bill or missing a mortgage payment.

If you boiled it down it was! Why were so many people taking out hugely bad mortgages that they couldn't afford in the US? "Living within your means" is an Alien concept to some people and they will never learn

As soon as this ressesion is over it will be the same people that will run up more huge debt they can't pay back.

I am Jacks lack of suprise, I am Jacks lack of sympathy
 
You really need to check your history books! Thatcher got us out of the last huge mess Labour left us in and advocated personal responsibility and not being dependent on the state. Labour threw money at eveything that moved until we were flat broke.

Not for nothing did Thatcher answer, "Tony Blair and New Labour" when asked what she considered her greatest achievement.

Tony Benn was asked why Tony Blair was the only Labour leader to win three general elections in a row; 'Well, I think because the British Establishment couldn't believe their luck. They had Thatcherite policies carried through by a Labour Prime Minister, able to call on the Labour Party to support him out of loyalty, and although he got sniping in the press.....I think New Labour has had the best press. Why? Because they were following the policies of Mrs Thatcher.

Maybe check your own history books. ;)
 
If you boiled it down it was! Why were so many people taking out hugely bad mortgages that they couldn't afford in the US? "Living within your means" is an Alien concept to some people and they will never learn

As soon as this ressesion is over it will be the same people that will run up more huge debt they can't pay back.

I am Jacks lack of suprise, I am Jacks lack of sympathy

Err, people with poor credit ratings were intentionally targeted to be sold 'teaser rate' mortgages. It was an easy way for banks to meet their statutory lending requirements (set by the Clinton administration) whilst being able to claim thousands of properties as collateral.

They were shafted from the moment they signed on the dotted line, they could never have repaid the debt they owed. It was nothing more than loan sharking on the part of financial institutions.
 
Yeah i forgot, us the 99% have been forced to take out crippling loans and maxed out our credit cards at gun point by evil greedy bankers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Personal responsibility died the day Labour went to power in 97 IMO

Yes, because me not having a crippling credit card debt could have stopped mortgage defaults in the states? :confused:

While the problem started with failing debts in america, they were brought here primarily by UK banks buying up these caustic debts. No amount of personal responsibility could have prevented this.

If you want to see where personal responsibility died, have a quick word with Thatcher.
 
But wealth is taxable. Capital Gains Tax being the most obvious one on the sale of appreciated wealth (as per your house example). Stamp duty is also tax on the accumulation of wealth (of which property likely makes up the largest portion of wealth in the UK, given that home ownership is around 90%). For all other forms of wealth, there is Inheritance Tax which is levied upon the total value of your estate at death, provided it is over a certain threshold.

Sure, you don't pay for your wealth whilst it is wealth, but as soon as you want to turn it into something that you can actually spend you're clobbered by the grey-suited ledger-wielders at HMRC.

Wealth isn't taxable within a timescale that matters though, if you want to tax based on wealth you can't take the current model its no good. Stamp duty isn't a wealth tax its a one off tax on those who move as opposed to those who don't.

Inheritance tax is fine but if your moving to a model based on ability to pay due to wealth it needs to happen to every estate a bit more frequently ;)

Unless the rules have change there is no CGT on your own home. There would be for example on a buy to let property.


Not strictly true, certain types of wealth depreciate in a market crash, others appreciate. Precious metals and commodities are the prime example of wealth that appreciates when markets crash, whilst property usually depreciates as liquidity dries up. For everybody in a crash who loses, there are those who have won. Excluding the 2008 scenario, this has been true of every market crash.

Just a generalisation, but generally if there is a crash the more normally held assets will depreciate. People run to the precious metals etc as they are deemed to be safer, ie they will hold an intrinsic value better than say a property. They also lose value later when normal activity is resumed as they become overpriced in a crash. I am not sure I get your last statement, gross generalisation imo, but if you have a source for that statement I am happy to retract.
 
Sure about that?

What happens when large amount of people start to default on their mortgage payments?

Hasn't happened however (yet), not in anywhere near the expected levels at the start of the crisis. The manipulation took effect by lowering the baserate to make those able to just about cope, plus the dramatic reduction in the time needed before the government started to bail out mortgage holders (GB moved it from 9 to 3 months).
This lasts for upto 2 years.

Guess who is paying for these mortgages to be paid that people can't afford...the taxpayer.

It helped to stop the property prices crashing, there could be a lot more pain to come yet.
 
Err, people with poor credit ratings were intentionally targeted to be sold 'teaser rate' mortgages. It was an easy way for banks to meet their statutory lending requirements (set by the Clinton administration) whilst being able to claim thousands of properties as collateral.

They were shafted from the moment they signed on the dotted line, they could never have repaid the debt they owed. It was nothing more than loan sharking on the part of financial institutions.

True.

People without the mental capaciy to understand fell for it.

It almost supports one of Kwerks posts, the future was borrowed to be used in the present. IE the whole growth bubble was kept running, partly by building these houses and lending the money to buy them at silly low rates to those who couldn't afford them and never should have bought them.

TBH I wish the UK would legislate that mortgage loans would be only available from building societies in future, it would be a relatively sfe place to invest at lower margins. It was only when this was flipped and the banks became the major lenders that the sorts of complex derivatives and swaps that allowed the market to go out of control came into existance.
Yep for sure lots of people wouldn't get a mortgage from the building societies, but thats because they never should have got one in the first place. The banks couldn't change peoples ability to repay, they just choose to set much lower requirements and then to wrap up this debt and sell it on, but when they sold it it was misbranded.
 
If you want to see where personal responsibility died, have a quick word with Thatcher.

Could you enlighten a little on this view.

As someone who lived during this time I would have said in general the opposite. My belief is that Thatcher was very much for personal responsibility and personal improvement than the previous which had been much more reliance on the state to provide and run things.
 
Yeah i forgot, us the 99% have been forced to take out crippling loans and maxed out our credit cards at gun point by evil greedy bankers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Personal responsibility died the day Labour went to power in 97 IMO

do you really think that? if so you need to look back at some history.

the world economic crisis was mainly caused by US banks giving out stupid low % mortgages. these were bought up by our banks.

once the USA fell it knocked us all. this caused widespread redundancies and people lost their homes.

most people hadnt taken out crippling loans as they thought they could pay them, until they were made redundant.

i still in part blame the media and its mass hysteria for our recession. they made everyone so scared that we might all lose our jobs we stopped spending and retail was majorly hit, which had a massive knock on effect to all others.

argue all you like but it was maggie who got people spending on credit. labour just followed suit.
 
do you really think that? if so you need to look back at some history.

the world economic crisis was mainly caused by US banks giving out stupid low % mortgages. these were bought up by our banks.

once the USA fell it knocked us all. this caused widespread redundancies and people lost their homes.

most people hadnt taken out crippling loans as they thought they could pay them, until they were made redundant.

i still in part blame the media and its mass hysteria for our recession. they made everyone so scared that we might all lose our jobs we stopped spending and retail was majorly hit, which had a massive knock on effect to all others.

argue all you like but it was maggie who got people spending on credit. labour just followed suit.

Theophany is on the right track with the Clinton stuff. That's what caused it. It actually started before Clinton but he put it on steroids, in the name of "fairness" and "equality".

"Let's make sure everyone has equal access to credit so they can all own homes and start business and be equal."

Result: epic train wreck.


Those loans would never had been made if the banks had done their normal due diligence. But of course due dilligence = racism and classism.

And then when it blows up the banks become "predatory lenders".

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
 
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This is what the BANKERS themselves had to say about it. This is a banking journal article from 1994:

"Fair-lending best practices" = make subprime loans to poor black people

Fair-Lending Pressure Builds

Any bankers hoping for the fair-lending controversy to simmer down so they can turn their attention to other things are in for a disappointment. Here's a rundown of recent developments:

* It is possible that before bankers even read this article, the Department of Justice will have settled or will have started litigating with Barnett Banks Inc. for alleged lending discrimination, adding the latest link in a chain of cases well-known to readers of this magazine. If litigation goes forward, this will be the first government fair-lending case that a bank will fight.

This case continues to proceed in spite of the Federal Reserve's decision earlier this year to approve a Barnett merger application over Justice's objections. (In a procedural nicety, the Comptroller's Office approved its portion of the application package, separating its deliberations from Justice's longer-term case by stating it found no evidence of discrimination during the one-year period selected for review.)

* The Savings and Community Bankers of America has formed a war-chest for fair-lending litigation. Meanwhile, ABA has engaged a leading law firm to look into fair-lending issues.

* Federal agencies continue to disagree on details of fairlending enforcement. An addendum to an early 1994 interagency policy on discrimination remains mired in disagreements and is running behind schedule.

* The Federal Reserve Board's final report on 1993 Home Mortgage Disclosure Act numbers found that disparities remain among denial rates for most minorities versus whites, although the disparities were tempered somewhat by year-to-year increases in loans granted to minorities.

This report recounts discussions at recent meetings.

"Best practices" stressed

Last January, on Martin Luther King Day, President Clinton signed an executive order creating a presidential Fair Housing CounCil under the direction of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Henry Cisneros. In response, Cisneros made a commitment to obtain voluntary agreements from 75 private lenders to better comply with federal fair-lending laws.

An early effort to strike such agreements with Washington, D.C., area lenders--many of whom had been tarred by a Washington Post series on alleged racial discrimination in lending-- fell apart. Bank lenders involved in the negotiations complained that HUD representatives were trying to ram the "voluntary" agreements down their throats. Since then, HUD has been trying to convince national lending organizations to strike such agreements with the department on behalf of their members.

ABA has resisted this effort in the belief that banks don't fall under HUD authority and already face a slew of such responsibilities under banking laws, including the Community Reinvestment Act. Yet HUD insists that its program is not duplicative of bank regulators' efforts, and Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity Roberta Achtenberg has stated that she expects that eventually depository institutions will join the best-practices program.

A group of lenders not subject to CRA--and more directly under HUD's purview--are the nation's mortgage banks. In mid-September, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America-whose membership includes many bank-owned mortgage companies, signed a three-year master best-practices agreement with HUD. The agreement consisted of two parts: MBA's agreement to work on fair-lending issues in consultation with HUD and a model best-practices agreement that individual mortgage banks could use to devise their own agreements with HUD. The first such agreement, signed by Countrywide Funding Corp., the nation's largest mortgage bank, is summarized on this page. Many have seen the MBA agreement as a preemptive strike against congressional murmurings that mortgage banks should be pulled under the umbrella of the CRA.

MBA used the occasion of its annual convention, held in October, as the official kickoff for orchestrating the wholesale signing of best-practices agreements. MBA officials--who stressed that signing an agreement didn't give HUD any additional regulatory power over a mortgage bank. Secretary Cisneros and Assistant Secretary Achtenberg commemorated and encouraged participation in speeches--frequently pitching the voluntary nature of the agreements. Often, the agreements were spoken of as partnerships between regulated and regulator. Countrywide president and former MBA president Angelo Mozilo stated in a speech that his firm's agreement was not "a forced march at all."

More HUD pressure

If voluntary agreements are one tool in its kit, HUD has others.

A few days before the MBA conference, Achtenberg spoke at a New York Law School conference on fair-lending.

Referring to the lenders taking part in best-practices agreements, Achtenberg said, "the only court they'd be liable in for breaking these agreements would be the court of public opinion." However, she noted that her office has reorganized itself, setting up ten enforcement centers around the country.

Achtenberg added that her department is still developing fair-lending regulations for lenders. Though it is a matter of controversy among both bankers and their regulators, it is expected that HUD will attempt to have these regulations apply to commercial banks as well as to the mortgage banks it already has authority over. Achtenberg expects the proposed regulations to be completed by year-end.

Private suits in the offing

The handful of carefully selected fair-lending cases pursued and publicized by the Justice Department has created such controversy that lenders may well have forgotten that the government isn't the only possible plaintiff. Private actions are also possible, and the New York Law School conference looked at these as well.

Speaking at the New York Law School conference, Judith Brown, assistant counsel for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Legal Defense and Educational Fund, recounted the details of a case her organization is involved in. It concerns alleged discrimination by a mortgage originator that sells many of its loans to a small Georgia bank's mortgage subsidiary. Brown said her group was reviewing data to determine if the case could be expanded into a class-action.

"There are [other] cases out there, just waiting to happen," said Brown. A Justice Department representative speaking on the same panel noted that his department is willing to play a role in such private actions.

Some good news on HMDA

During a free-ranging panel discussion during ABA's Annual Convention in October, Paul Hancock, chief of the Housing and Civil Enforcement Section of Justice's Civil Rights Division, clarified for listeners how his unit uses HMDA numbers.

HMDA statistics are only "a starting point," said Hancock. "We have actually begun investigations of banks that had higher rejection rates, and sometimes we've stopped in our tracks because community groups have said, 'This is a bank that is out there aggressively seeking applications, and don't be misled by their rejection rates'," said Hancock.
 
Just a generalisation, but generally if there is a crash the more normally held assets will depreciate. People run to the precious metals etc as they are deemed to be safer, ie they will hold an intrinsic value better than say a property. They also lose value later when normal activity is resumed as they become overpriced in a crash. I am not sure I get your last statement, gross generalisation imo, but if you have a source for that statement I am happy to retract.

It's a normal economic function - those holding assets like gold, silver, oil, copper, infrastructure etc before the crash occurs will see their assets rise in value (and thus their wealth increase) after the crash as those not holding those assets flock to them for their perceived safety.

I've got some great data on it at work as we use it to show our clients why they should diversify their investments across asset classes. Sadly, not being in work today means I haven't got it to hand - but I can grab it when I am back. :)
 
The banks should be our main distributor of wealth, not the government but the problem is they are hoarding money to pay for all the fines and law suits that they are getting hit with.

In a fluid banking system where you have a society with savers and spenders the banks should be re-distributing the savers money to the spenders in the form of loans for business, mortgages etc etc whilst taking a profit which can be further re-invested in those that need it.

That's simply not happening and the wheels of the machine are running far too slow.

They are hoarding money because they know lending it out would end in more failure. It's painfully obvious the loans can not be paid back with anything. There is no more illusionary "growth" to exploit anywhere.

Why should they lend you money to start a dog grooming business, with public sector workers as your customers, who are paid by a government which is partially funded literally by dreams. And the part that is funded by actually tax revenue is based on dreams too, in the private sector. Like the tax from your dog grooming business.

Then they are supposed to lend you money for a house leveraged on that dog grooming business "asset" you now own?

It's completely detached from reality.

What can you actually pay them back with? Dog haircuts and dreams. And maybe profits from your APPL stock fueled by Asian slave labour.
 
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