Streatham shooting: Man 'shot dead in the street' as police declare terror-related incident

[StriderX]

I was very clearly talking about the UK. Muslims can jihad each other all they want in their own countries.

More than a tad bigoted.

• First, the overwhelming majority of extremist and violent terrorist incidents do occur in largely Muslim states.
• Second, most of these incidents are perpetrated by a small minority of Muslims seeking power primarily in their own areas of operation and whose primary victims are fellow Muslims.
• Third, almost all of the governments of the countries involved are actively fighting extremism and terrorism, and most are allies of Western states that work closely with the security, military, and counterterrorism forces of non-Muslim states to fight extremism and terrorism.
• Fourth, the vast majority of Muslims oppose violent extremism and terrorism, and,
• Fifth, religion is only one of many factors that lead to instability and violence in largely Muslim states. It is a critical ideological force in shaping the current patterns of extremism, but it does not represent the core values of Islam and many other far more material factors help lead to the rise of extremism.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/islam-and-patterns-terrorism-and-violent-extremism

You'll get your autocratic society in no time if you keep thinking in absolutes, even if you say you don't want it, that doesn't really stop it from happening, as we saw a century ago.

 

[VincentHanna]

Yeah even fairly well down in the SW it is a growing problem though fortunately mostly contained to those involved in it. I can't remember exact details now but around a year ago there was trouble between some locals and a drugs gang from London that resulted in someone getting stabbed and they called in their reinforcements and we walked past while they were gathering in a car park taunting the one police officer who'd turned up to keep an eye on them - eventually resulted in 6 people being stabbed or something.

It's very much two worlds which don't often collide - yet. But it's happening all around us.

I wouldn't feel unsafe walking around where I live, because they don't tend to target random people like terrorists - though I have heard of gang initiations where they have to stab a stranger to join the gang.

I know my Nephew (18) was involved in drugs gangs from about the age of 15. Apparently he isn't now, but he knows the person that got stabbed near me.

 

[LeMson]

"We"?

I haven't, I don't use social media for such things.

It's spammed everywhere for me, friends etc :S

 

[Skunkworks]

More than a tad bigoted.

Your buzzwords have no affect on me.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/islam-and-patterns-terrorism-and-violent-extremism

IDGAF

 

[VincentHanna]

It's spammed everywhere for me, friends etc :S

Well I'm glad that I've not got the sort of friends that are desperate for me to see wounded strangers and dead people.

 

[StriderX]

Well I'm glad that I've not got the sort of friends that are desperate for me to see wounded strangers and dead people.

Starting to become a cult i imagine, the nuance will be lost however that actually most Muslims are sound individuals.

 

[Skunkworks]

Well I'm glad that I've not got the sort of friends that are desperate for me to see wounded strangers and dead people.

The Left wanted to "rub the right's nose in diversity", so maybe we should start rubbing the Left's nose in the consequences.

 

[Roar87]

Starting to become a cult i imagine, the nuance will be lost however that actually most Muslims are sound individuals.

No one has said anything against Muslims as individuals, you're constructing a false argument to attack; people are criticising their ideology.

 

[StriderX]

No one has said anything against Muslims as individuals, you're constructing a false argument to attack; people are criticising their ideology.

Then why has there been attacks on innocent Muslims then? There's been more than a few in recent years. So it's not 'no one' is it? I am not talking about people in this thread, as the issue is far wider, I wont be simplifying it down to constituent parts to absolve shared responsibility, living in a democratic society.

The Left wanted to "rub the right's nose in diversity", so maybe we should start rubbing the Left's nose in the consequences.

By doing what?

 

[VincentHanna]

By doing what?

I had to google his quotation ("rub the right's nose in diversity"), he's referring to this: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Andrew_Neather

Neather objected to this exaggeration of his comments. "Multiculturalism was not the primary point of the report or the speech", he clarified in a follow-up published three days after his original article. "The main goal was to allow in more migrant workers at a point when - hard as it is to imagine now - the booming economy was running up against skills shortages. But my sense from several discussions was there was also a subsidiary political purpose to it - boosting diversity and undermining the Right's opposition to multiculturalism."

"Somehow this has become distorted by excitable Right-wing newspaper columnists into being a 'plot' to make Britain multicultural", he said. "There was no plot. I've worked closely with [Barbara] Roche and Jack Straw and they are both decent, honourable people whom I respect (not something I'd say for many politicians)."

"The Right see plots everywhere and will hyperventilate at the drop of a chapati", he concluded. "The Left, however, will immediately accuse anyone who raises immigration as an issue as 'playing the race card' - as the Government has on several occasions over the past decade. Both sides need to grow up."

 

[stockhausen]

I'd argue that the biggest issue this country is facing is the drugs gangs epidemic, not Islamic terror.
. . .
This stuff isn't just confined to London boroughs now - Plus I know of people in their 30's and 40's who are doing coke all the time - Most of these people have young kids. Their addiction is feeding the gang violence.

Entirely agree; violence and killings related to drug dealing is far more of a problem than Islamic based murders.

I suspect that there are many more cocaine abusers than Muslims working in the Meeja and in Politics

 

[dl8860]

As soon as you raise the notion of 'the left' or 'the right' in these discussions then you've lost the argument. Talk about facts and ideas, don't try and paint the whole issue as the fault of everyone who votes further one way than you on a political spectrum.

 

[JohnLondon]

Could you point to any of the victims of the attacks that have done that?

Also, last time I checked most of the perpetrators aren't from the middle east.

Also given that they often cite Syria as the reason, considering the West was in support of the Syrian people wouldn't they be better off directing their ire against the Syrian regime?

Syria. Yeah, often used as the blame.

I could point to the lackadaisical acceptance of our government illegally appropriating these regions while fecklessly mass murdering the indigenous people as being partially (if not much more than partially) the general publics fault. A few hundred thousand people protesting outside Downing street in 2003 is hardly representative of the way this nation thinks, recent mass right wing rhetoric would suggest otherwise. But then I'm just simplifying my thought pattern and response based on the perceived intelligence in here, with lovely comments such as "I lean out the window and see them swapping drugs and cash" (or something to that effect, can't be arsed going back up this laughable response chain to get the word for word). I thought the flavour of the day was fecklessly writing off an entire section of society based on the behaviour of a few people I've otherwise never spoken to, nor been around, to confirm either their way of thinking or background. Know what I mean?

Tell ya what, here's a comparison sheet for you:

Civilians killed in Iraq since 2003: ~ 184'000 - 208'000
Civilians killed in the UK since 2003: ~ 60

Not saying anyone is justified - and nobody should die, but the tunnel visioned view of the UK populace on this matter and many other of our forced appropriation of land that's not ours, is hilarious at best.

But it's fine, we're OK doing it because our lot wear uniforms. And who's to question the government and military, eh? Make sure you go buy 11teen trillion red poppies to show your support.

 

[Mekrel]

More than a tad bigoted.



https://www.csis.org/analysis/islam-and-patterns-terrorism-and-violent-extremism

You'll get your autocratic society in no time if you keep thinking in absolutes, even if you say you don't want it, that doesn't really stop it from happening, as we saw a century ago.

Whilst you're undoubtedly right that its a minority of the Muslim population that hold extreme views, it's a very simplistic view to take and seems to imply that it's okay to gloss over the fact that the Islamic faith has as a major issue in regards to extremism because it's only a 'few' people.

Let's not also forget that you can't talk percentages when we're talking about a faith with such a large number of followers. ISIS at its peak had .c 30K fighters across Syria and Iraq, that's a lot of people who so vehemently believed that anyone who did not follow their version of Islam shouldn't be able to draw breath. Putting that into perspective, that's an army larger than the military numbers of some developed European countries.

I'm sure the Yazidis find great comfort in the fact that majority of Muslims don't believe in violence.

 

[Dis86]

Syria. Yeah, often used as the blame.

I could point to the lackadaisical acceptance of our government illegally appropriating these regions while fecklessly mass murdering the indigenous people as being partially (if not much more than partially) the general publics fault. A few hundred thousand people protesting outside Downing street in 2003 is hardly representative of the way this nation thinks, recent mass right wing rhetoric would suggest otherwise. But then I'm just simplifying my thought pattern and response based on the perceived intelligence in here, with lovely comments such as "I lean out the window and see them swapping drugs and cash" (or something to that effect, can't be arsed going back up this laughable response chain to get the word for word). I thought the flavour of the day was fecklessly writing off an entire section of society based on the behaviour of a few people I've otherwise never spoken to, nor been around, to confirm either their way of thinking or background. Know what I mean?

Tell ya what, here's a comparison sheet for you:

Civilians killed in Iraq since 2003: ~ 184'000 - 208'000
Civilians killed in the UK since 2003: ~ 60

Not saying anyone is justified - and nobody should die, but the tunnel visioned view of the UK populace on this matter and many other of our forced appropriation of land that's not ours, is hilarious at best.

But it's fine, we're OK doing it because our lot wear uniforms. And who's to question the government and military, eh? Make sure you go buy 11teen trillion red poppies to show your support.

How many of those Iraqi civilians were killed by western forces? How many were killed by the sectarian Islamic civil war?

 

[StriderX]

Whilst you're undoubtedly right that its a minority of the Muslim population that hold extreme views, it's a very simplistic view to take and seems to imply that it's okay to gloss over the fact that the Islamic faith has as a major issue in regards to extremism because it's only a 'few' people.

Let's not also forget that you can't talk percentages when we're talking about a faith with such a large number of followers. ISIS at its peak had .c 30K fighters across Syria and Iraq, that's a lot of people who so vehemently believed that anyone who did not follow their version of Islam shouldn't be able to draw breath. Putting that into perspective, that's an army larger than the military numbers of some developed European countries.

I'm sure the Yazidis find great comfort in the fact that majority of Muslims don't believe in violence.

Perhaps, but what exactly are those folks meant to do that they already aren't doing to quell the existential rage some young Muslim men seem to have? They need to be given the opportunity to have a better life, though it seems with how this century is likely to go, that doesn't seem likely.

It's not an easy problem to resolve, as people end up terrorists for many reasons that have nothing to do with faith and it merely evolves into that through group identity.

It's the same problem we have with our own youths getting into the drug gangs because they're fatherless, under-educated, underachieving or however other way they might come into such a stupid decision.

 

[Orionaut]

Tell me, what's more likely to be an issue for us, 5% of the population or 50%? The far-right may not be a threat in your eyes, but they have a far greater potential,

There is another point at issue here.

Threat to who exactly??

The "Far Right" are of no significant threat to the vast majority of the UK population.

By contrast, the vast majority of the UK population are (Potentially at least) at threat from Islamic terrorism.

So which should be considered the greater concern?

 

[StriderX]

There is another point at issue here.

Threat to who exactly??

The "Far Right" are of no significant threat to the vast majority of the UK population.

By contrast, the vast majority of the UK population are (Potentially at least) at threat from Islamic terrorism.

So which should be considered the greater concern?

Who's more likely to make vast changes to our way of life, 0-5% of a population or a popular enough plurality (suppose 50% is a bit aggressive) to win a majority government?

I don't fear Islamists, I do fear a growing populist, anti-immigrant, nationalistic sentiment that could well turn into something tangible and threatening as they rip up everything the West has built up for centuries over some undeserved vanity. This is not some farcical pretend future, it's entirely possible and has happened before in entirely democratic societies over much the same problems.

Couldn't give a **** about jihadis, they're never going to win because they never have in their centuries long argument with eachother. I won't be downplayed the very real threat that a far-right government has on my life as they go through the list of undesirables.

 

[stockhausen]

The Left wanted to "rub the right's nose in diversity" . . .

I believe that that quote comes from a trusted adviser of Blair, so hardly a prime example of "The Left".

 

[VincentHanna]

How many of those Iraqi civilians were killed by western forces?

2003-2004 approx 10,000 US/UK coalition civilian deaths alone.