Streatham shooting: Man 'shot dead in the street' as police declare terror-related incident

Capodecina
Soldato
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How many of those Iraqi civilians were killed by western forces? How many were killed by the sectarian Islamic . . .
The vast majority I suspect.
However, recklessly overthrowing a Nation's Government and administration because you no longer support it and happen to want to control its natural resources is pretty much guaranteed to lead to chaos.
 
Soldato
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Tell ya what, here's a comparison sheet for you:

Civilians killed in Iraq since 2003: ~ 184'000 - 208'000
Civilians killed in the UK since 2003: ~ 60

Not saying anyone is justified - and nobody should die, but the tunnel visioned view of the UK populace on this matter and many other of our forced appropriation of land that's not ours, is hilarious at best.

But it's fine, we're OK doing it because our lot wear uniforms. And who's to question the government and military, eh? Make sure you go buy 11teen trillion red poppies to show your support.

You do realise Coalition forces are not responsible for the vast majority of Iraqi deaths?

It isn't like we've killed 200k people in Iraq and they've only killed 60 here. It's actually that Islamic Insurgents in Iraq have murdered thousands of people over there, and Islamic extremists in Britain have killed 60 civilians here as well. The common denominator is Islamic terror. UK and US forces operate under very strict rules of engagement, they aren't there to shoot innocent people, they've done far more good over there than bad.
 
Soldato
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London
Syria. Yeah, often used as the blame.

I could point to the lackadaisical acceptance of our government illegally appropriating these regions while fecklessly mass murdering the indigenous people as being partially (if not much more than partially) the general publics fault. A few hundred thousand people protesting outside Downing street in 2003 is hardly representative of the way this nation thinks, recent mass right wing rhetoric would suggest otherwise. But then I'm just simplifying my thought pattern and response based on the perceived intelligence in here, with lovely comments such as "I lean out the window and see them swapping drugs and cash" (or something to that effect, can't be arsed going back up this laughable response chain to get the word for word). I thought the flavour of the day was fecklessly writing off an entire section of society based on the behaviour of a few people I've otherwise never spoken to, nor been around, to confirm either their way of thinking or background. Know what I mean?

Tell ya what, here's a comparison sheet for you:

Civilians killed in Iraq since 2003: ~ 184'000 - 208'000
Civilians killed in the UK since 2003: ~ 60

Not saying anyone is justified - and nobody should die, but the tunnel visioned view of the UK populace on this matter and many other of our forced appropriation of land that's not ours, is hilarious at best.

But it's fine, we're OK doing it because our lot wear uniforms. And who's to question the government and military, eh? Make sure you go buy 11teen trillion red poppies to show your support.

I don't understand this, are trying to say British/US soldiers go out to kill innocent civilians?
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Mar 2008
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32,747
I don't understand this, are trying to say British/US soldiers go out to kill innocent civilians?

Fallujah?

You do realise Coalition forces are not responsible for the vast majority of Iraqi deaths?

It isn't like we've killed 200k people in Iraq and they've only killed 60 here. It's actually that Islamic Insurgents in Iraq have murdered thousands of people over there, and Islamic extremists in Britain have killed 60 civilians here as well. The common denominator is Islamic terror. UK and US forces operate under very strict rules of engagement, they aren't there to shoot innocent people, they've done far more good over there than bad.

An insurgency mostly attributed to the now heavily regretted decision to rip out Iraq's infrastructure (police/military), a decision we (or more accurately the US) made. Unfortunately we can't really see what the world would have been like had that stupid decision not been acted upon, but it'd likely have been less **** for everyone involved.

The attempts to deny involvement of the West in continued narratives for Islamist preachers to abuse is farcical at this point. Nobody is saying that it isn't primary the perpetrators of jihad that they do the things they do, but there's a lot of nuance in there and simplification of complex issues is not a resolution that works, ever.
 
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Caporegime
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Possibly, except France, Sweden etc were not involved in these conflicts and yet have had to suffer these attacks - unless you count cartoons?

And how does sept 11 square?

Once you start rationalising one event you can rationalise it to all of them. Again it is not a simple problem. 9/11 was about the US's bases in the ME and primarily about Kuwait. France and Sweden being in NATO is probably enough of a rationale for many extremists as any sort of nuance is pointless to them, they're allies with the enemy, and thus are the enemy. It's hardly a strict codified order of people who share the same beliefs as each other, Al-Qaeda is not ISIS, and ISIS is not Al-Shaabab. That's ignoring lone-wolfs who could have any assortment of beliefs.

Trying to simplify as just Iraq, or just Afghanistan is ignoring decades of involvement and the complexities at the heart of the whole issue.
 
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Caporegime
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That was one year.

You are comparing that one year against 200k total deaths since 2003.

No it wasn't. The 10k is given as the total direct deaths attributable to the coalition forces. Unless you've got a source saying otherwise? Keep in mind as well that they were 'civilians'. One of the key issues with the Iraq conflict was distinguishing friend from foe.
 
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