Supplements the debate/discussion thread

bakes0310 said:
ok here goes...........
Mon/wed/fri are training days
breakfast (7:30am)
cereal and 2 scrambled eggs on toast
synergy drink

gym about 8:30-8:45 im done in about an hour and a quarter.
take synergy drink straight after

lunch (12:00)
varies from steak,gamon meat etc....
usually have some nuts after

Im at work
First break (5:45pm)
big bowl of pasta which either has chicken or tuna in it
cereal bar
muller light yogurt
grapes
prunes

last break (8:30)
cookie with hazlenuts in it
apple
more grapes

Im at home and im having supper (10:45)
soup or tin of mackeral

I work on rotating shifts so my diet changes around a bit, but it aint much different.

Training wise i have a new program every 6-7 weeks i cant tell you what im doing at the moment as its just changed and i cant remember what im doing. The only thing that stays the same is the body layout:

monday: legs and shoulders
wed: biceps and....doh forgot that one what body part am i missing:p
friday chest and triceps

Anyway i hope thats enough info you need freefaller the only thing i can think to add is:

my age 24
height 6"0
weight 12stone 10 pounds

Ive been around that weight for about 2 months now. It doesnt seem to be going up and im not sure if i want to go much higher. I dont think i got a goal really just to keep going to the gym, which is a easy goal for me anyway....im addicted:) all i know is i want to pack on the muscles more and lift the heavier weights:)
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So you don't want to go higher yet you want to pack on more muscl?! :p Make up your mind!

Overall the diet isn't TOO bad.

I'd ditch the shake in the morning and add an extra egg. I presume it's wholemeal bread and not white bread? I'd also have some fruits, and/or maybe a yoghurt with some berries of some kind, or a small bowl of porridge.

However you're training soon after - so maybe wise to keep it lighter, however it's more important to get a decent meal within an hour of training. So maybe split the breakfast, i.e. have porridge in the morning before gym and some eggs and fruit etc... after training.

I presume with lunch you have some veg too? And I don't mean one or two, as in a decent serving?

The pasta you have at work, I presume is wholemeal? Do you make it yourself or is it premade? (i.e. lots of added sugars etc...) I take it there will be veg too?
Grapes and prunes are good though.
Not sure about the cereal bar - loaded with sugars and simple carbs, I'd find an alternative. Yoghurt is cool though - again, make sure it's not loaded with sugars and additives etc...

Ditch the cookie - sure it's good to have a treat, but every day? A cookie will give you a huge short digested insulin spike, and serves little purpose - sure it tastes nice. Treat yourself to some from time to time, but don't make it part of a staple diet.

Soup and mackerel is good - though clearly be aware of what's going into your soup.

Have you worked out the macros and the figures of what you're eating? Keep a food diary? Don't forget to add drinks to it too - it does clock up, especially horrid fizzy drinks. I take it you drink lots of water?

178lbs is a good weight, do you know what your BF is? (don't guess - it's ok not to know!). You have to be set in your goals. If you want to maintain, you can still work with high intensity - no point in training half hearted - if you want to gain mass you're going to have to eat more and train harder! ;)

Overall the diet is ok, though I'd like to see more veg. I'm not sure of your serving sizes or the amounts of each portion of c/p/f, you're a bit carb heavy and fat light, but it's a lot better than I've seen. I'm sure you're hitting without the shakes over 100g of protein (I'm trying to go my my portion size and shrink it a little), so almost what you should be having on a daily basis - if your portions are bigger than I have guessed then you're well on your way. Keep the post work out shake, but do do do eat after the gym - it's the 2nd most important feed of the day (the PWO meal), and because you have it at breakfast time I'd make sure you load up a bit more. Furthermore by training in the morning the meal you have the night before is more pertinent. So mackerel is ideal as it'll be slowly digested taking full advangtage of your nightly hormone releases, a quick breakfast in the morning to elevate you, a hard training session (if you're not ready to puke you're not training hard enough! :D) and a good PWO meal and you're good to go. The rest looks ok, just make sure you eat at least 3 big portions of veggies.

Mansize_tissue said:
Thanks. I'll probably take 2g in the morning with some whey and oats, pre workout with food and post workout with more whey and oats.
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Sounds spot on to me. I responded very well to that sort of dosing - I was aiming for a dietary excess of around 5-7g per day. Though although I said there's little point, I did frontload it, though it must be said that last time I used creatine I was having a very low meat diet for the time before.
 
You've certainly got the right attitude, which helps. :) I don't mind helping people, or at least offering advice to those that ask for it who are happy to take on board what is being said. So no worries. :)

Pre workout you need to give yourself some energy and some protein, but the PWO meal is the most important - I'll let you decide, but maybe a small bowl of porridge and then the eggs on toast afterwards?

I'm not sure what synergy drink is - what does it contain? If you feel it helps, keep it, but that's your call. :)

Pasta sounds good, make sure it's heavier on the filling than the actual pasta though! i.e. bulk it out with veg and protein based food (i.e. meat).

Cereal bar is just loaded with sugars and server very little nutrionally. Don't bother about a protein bar - how about some cottage cheese, or some hummous and carrots, or oatcakes - jsut something a bit more wholesome would be better IMO.

Haha - well if the cookie is that nice, by all means treat yourself, I'm just saying it's likely to give you very little in terms of nutrition, and whether or not it has hazlenuts - it's like that nutella advert trying to tell us it's healthy because it contains nuts! :D If you want a snack, how about sardines, or some ham and cheese, or something like that? ?Not as tasty as a cookie I admit, but 100% better for you!

Drinks sound good, though just be aware that a lot of juices add sweetners to them.

Don't trust that machine - seriously. Get yourself measured properly. Any instructor worth their salt wouldn't state that those machines are "ok". :)

Post work out I like something with electrolytes, but also I make my own mixture of finely blended oats nad protein (as well as a few other magic things such as cinnamon etc...). The actualy drink is less important if you have a decent meal PWO. Hence why I suggested you split your brekkie. It's more important to get some slow releasing protein at night, then worry about post workout if you're about to have a meal. I have a shake PWO as I don't eat till about 1.5hrs afterwards and want to start the recovery process - you have the opportunity to eat straight away. It's your call, your money. :)
 
Benny06 said:
I tried the cinnamon and found it didn't help!

Ocean Spray cranberry concentrate cordial I found worked the best as it's a very similar taste. That and drinking them with an open mouth is a winning combination.:p

Edit: Just noticed MP do Flax Seed Powder. Might have to get me some of that. Could do with some more EFA's in my diet other than olive oil, mayonaisse, milk, eggs, the occasional butter and rarely have cheese.

Also what would you suggest is a good amount of fat (grams) in ones daily diet. Currently on around 2500 calories with about 200 grams of protein, 250 grams of carbs, 50-60 grams fat. A little high on protein but these are rough averages. Also carbs may be higher if I have pasta or rice etc.

Edit: On another side not the partial cut/slim down is going well. 13lbs 7 down from just under 14 stone on 8th January. Not really lost any size and strength is on the up slightly too. Still not looking really lean as I seem to retain fat around my low abdomen and lower back however this is rapidly disappearing. :) 6 more weeks to go with still another 30KG to add to my big three.
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200g is about as much protein as you'd want/need anyway for your bodyweight (taking into account lean body mass) but you're not over doing it but it is at the high/max mark. 250g of carbs is good, if you can lower it more so much the better, I'm just under 200g per day at the moment. I find that's just about enough for me, but it does mean I'm eating more (protein/fat rich foods). Bear in mind that eating more protein/fat foods tend to keep you fuller longer, so if you're trying to gain some LBM you're going to have to force yourself to eat a little. And depending on your activity levels it may be suitable to up the carbs to compensate. Last season playing rugby I was eating 400g of carbs - else I was a walking zombie, but then again I was eating about 4000+ cals. :D

It's about tailoring/balancing your diet - play with the macros and see how you get on. Balance is far more important than all out obsessing about 1 thing. :) To me your balance is pretty good and if you're feeling good from it then that's all you need. Then work out how you're gaining from it if.when you do - it's hard work bulking clean, it's possible, but ain't easy!!
 
To get the best out of the GH spike at night, you don't want carbs as the insulin doesn't work synergistically with GH and IGF-1 based hormones (there are more but the names are too tricky to type and I can't remember how to spell them :p). Protein however works very well with such hormones. Bear in mind milk and a lot of lactose based foods do have carbs in them, so it's just a balance of what you're trying to achieve. :)

Benny - currently you're cutting so what you're doing is fine - but, you can keep that methodology and bulk, but it jsut means eating more fats and protein. However it is possible.

Today for example I was desperate for a snack, so had a BIG salad (spinach, rocket, cress, lettuce, with a couple of boiled eggs, lardons, slivers of parmesan, pine kernels, olive oil and balsamic vinegar) fantastic snack, and actually quite calorific with good protein/fat profile, and decent fibre/small carb intake from the salads and other ingredients. Not a meal, but tasty as hell. Later I had a big bowl of beef stew (no dumplings or rice or bread, jsut stew).

It's small little things like that that can boost your protein/fat intake sensible. You can replace the eggs and lardons with tuna, sardines, mackerel etc... a leafy salad adds a good base for putting protein onto of it and "fills" you more.
 
Even better would be a non lactose based protein - but that's not everybody's cup of tea before bed. A nice steak before bed is good! :D I keeed I keeed... well sort of. Cottage cheese, a small tin of sardines/mackerel, 3-4 slices of ham etc... however if you want to go the supplement route, then hemp or pea protein (pea is ideal before bed). However ity just means more supplements to buy (unless you're not using whey anymore! ;)).
 
If you're worried about the oestrogenic side effects, you can take some reservartol with it which has anti aromatase (aromatase inhibitor) properties which prevents adrogenic compounds from converting to oestrogen.
 
Can we keep the slightly tenuous legality back on track of legality please. I have deleted some posts, not because they were particularly bad but it's verging on leading to naughty things. Any issues drop me a mail and I'll explain. :)
 
;)

Whey in itself doesn't give you gains, it just boosts the amount of protein you consume, the calorific value (unless taken in milk) isn't really significant IMO 5% of your calorific intake (for me anyway, and I take it with water - though I've moved over the hemp now).

As discussed before 30g of protein has been shown to be the optimum amount for protein synthesis per meal/feed - though hitting 40g or more will provide more synthesis, in terms of efficiency and amount of synthesis per g 30g is the golden number. Personally I sacrifice the optimal for a bit more to get the calories in for every meal (around 40g for 4-5 meals = 160-200g) any shake I take (typically only post work out) will be a bonus.

A good diet and training will give you the "gains" - whey is just food supplementation, nothing more. It's not like a hormone based supplement - then again they only provide "gains" if the diet and training is up to par.

It's just an irksome term for me :o
 
I don't need weight gainer. Weight gainer is for gays :p I managed to get to over 100kg without them too ;)

It's mainly amino acids, and nitrix oxide synergists, futhermore, to help minimise catabolism, increase endurance and recovery as well as protein synthesis. It's designed to aid my training, give me that extra bit of focus, recovery and endurance. It adds maybe 5% to my work out at best - remember these are just supplements. However, it does very much help with the recovery along with my revised eating plan they should work together to provide a good amino acid, vitamin profile, boost my anabolic state and help take advantage of my natural anabolic state, owing principally from eating well at the right times and sleeping well.
 
It was a little dear, but I spend about £200 on supps a year so it's not as if I spend a fortune, so I could allow myself a bit of a break! If I'm going to do this program I'm going to do it right! ;)

I've basically copied a lot of pre-made stacks, but making it for myself, adding better ingredients and more suited for my diet, build, size and training needs. You just can't buy this stuff premade - you have to tweak it to your needs. I felt like a mad scientist last night, blending all my bits and pieces. I just need to blend a few bits and pieces and I'll be good to go. One new type of sup are antioxidants to try and minimise cortisol in the evenings which should encourage better sleep. We'll see!
 
I'm not off till midweek next week. I always have a good time, and I try to stay safe! ;)

I've tried most supps over the past 3years and I've been honest to myself as to how they make me feel etc... Some work well together, others, not so much. I get a lot of advice from ESN, but also experimenting myself.

Most of my hardwork and money goes into my diet. Then I treat myself to supps when doing something extreme just to save my shopping bill if anything!

I don't spend more on supps as I just don't need them day to day, 2.5kg of protein lasts me 1/3rd of a year if not more. :)
 
100g of whey in one go is pointless I'm afraid Dun. :) Sure you'll synthesis a lot of it, but so much of it will just turn to glucose and you're basically metabolising a very expensive carb from protein. It's just a waste of money frankly. However it's your money...

I'm not bothered about the flavour of whey as I tend to only have it on training days it's really a non issue. It's not a vital part of my diet. I have to say I agree with ben90 I'd rather have some pure good quality whey than have it laced with rubbish.

Oh and can we get off the habit of saying "I didn't feel any difference from whey" etc... As you won't - bar bloating or feeling full. It's not an anabolic compound. You won't "gain" anything directly from it. It's used as a supplement rich in protein and amino acids to increase your diet values. That's it.
 
Yeah I remember you saying, I just don't want you to waste your money that's all. Just looking out for my fellow gym rats. :) Taking a 100g of whey aas a supplement is fine (well personally I'd advocate a proper diet but we all know my thoughts on that :p :o) but just spread it out 3x a day rather than in 1 big hit - much more effective.

I'll give you my thoughts on BA when I get home - I like it, and have recently done a bit more research into it so will happily share my thoughts with you. :)
 
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