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The Brexit Party

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Mr Badger, May 8, 2019.

  1. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,517

    Go back and read my post, you seemed to have massively missed the content let alone the point! Skim reading doesn't work :/
     
  2. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 11,281

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    Yep - re-read it, still happy with my post as written. I could change it to add some more Farage untruths or lies I suppose, but what's there is already pretty damning.
     
  3. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,471

    So how would you react if people said you were scaremongering for simply voicing concerns, that you were a liberal elite, that you were lying, an enemy of the people, a saboteur, that you hated your own country, that you're moaning, that you don't know anything, and all the other thinly veiled insults that go back over decades?

    It's pointless trying to look back to try and discover who started it though as we'll never know, what we can do however is try to moderate the rhetoric we use going forward and unfortunately IMO leave supporters are particularly guilty when it comes to still using inflammatory language, you only have to look at the rhetoric the Farage party used in the EU elections to see they're still trying to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as an enemy who must be defeated by any means necessary.
     
  4. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,452

    Location: West Sussex, England

    No election is solely about facts or logic, no one completes any test of facts before they exercise their right to vote on whatever basis the individual see's fit. No different in fact to a jury returning a verdict that in their opinion is beyond reasonable doubt, it's therefore a judgement made by each individual.
     
  5. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Lincs

    Yes, a judgement based on the facts and logic they have just been listening too! :rolleyes::p

    They don't just ignore the prosecution and defence arguments and plump for a decision based on their own unsounded feelings
     
  6. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 11,906

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Based primarily on facts/evidence/logic. Unless you are Brexiter, then its based on feels and gambling.
     
  7. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,452

    Location: West Sussex, England

    You missed out opinion, and since democracy began there's never been any way to control how people exercise their right of voting. As illogical as the outcome maybe to some that is part and parcel of living in a democracy.
     
  8. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Lincs

    I was just pointing out the crap analogy :p
     
  9. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,452

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Not really, you could be unlucky and get a jury that just want to get home quick.
     
  10. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,887

    Any jury that "wants to get home quick" should be forced to watch 12 angry men.
     
  11. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 3,142

    Brexit is based on more than that for most people, it's just that they, to a man, woman and dog, find it hard to say what exactly it's based on and what it means. They find it very frustrating that other people just don't get it.
     
  12. Shocky-FM

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2005

    Posts: 3,407

    So unless there is a miracle Boris will be in the final two, the only question now is if Tory members will vote for him. I suspect they will but it would be funny if they rejected him. :p
     
  13. Colonel_Klinck

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 3, 2007

    Posts: 761

    Location: London, UK

    Please please please NEVER turn up for jury duty.
     
  14. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,452

    Location: West Sussex, England

    too late :cool:
     
  15. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 11,281

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    That's because their views, formed over years if not decades, are not based on substance or relevant facts. And when presented with facts that evidence a different outcome, it is easier to dismiss them as project fear rather than undo years of understanding / conditioning.
     
  16. Murphy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 1,471

    So you're aware of the principal behind the presumption of innocence and burden of proof?
     
  17. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,128

    You have to wait longer that you would like for an appointment with your GP and then when you attend the surgery there are a lot of "foreign" looking people in the waiting room. The message in the newspaper you read and the social media you consume is that "***********" come over here as health tourists and pay nothing into the system and that we need to take back control and leave the EU. QED immigration is the problem.

    Someone explains to you (including providing links to official and credible sources) that:

    1) There are a number of reasons why waiting times may be lengthening (increased demand due to the ageing UK population, insufficient funding, not enough new GPs coming through to replace the ones that are leaving etc.)
    2) Immigrants actually provide an economic benefit to the UK and by paying tax help to fund things such as the NHS.
    3) That the reported cases of health tourists flying in from Africa etc. are considered to be a comparatively minor issue in the big scheme of things (hence why adequate resources aren't devoted to stopping it)
    4) That your concerns seem to be primarily about about non EU immigration which is increasing as immigration from the EU is falling.
    5) That leaving the EU will solve none of the above.

    Do you review your position, or dismiss the above points as being fake news because it's "common sense" that we need to get out of the EU to reduce demand on the NHS?
     
  18. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 3,142

    It's much, much deeper than any "project fear" dismissal. It's actual non-compute that people don't understand that we'd be better off leaving. It's so obvious when people "get it".

    That's why a lot of them aren't interested in discussion about it. It's like you're asking them to consider incoherent flights of fancy. People just shut down.

    Besides, whatever facts and figures you bring up to say what a bad idea it is, they're not relevant to the reason why they voted leave. And/or, it's a price worth paying and you don't understand that then you just don't get it. It's a matter of opinion not fact if something is a price worth paying afterall.

    Then there's the icing on top that the referendum result gave it a democratic mandate and the bureaucrats won't enact it. That's very galvanising.

    My MiL for instance thinks that the economy shrinking by 10% is a price worth paying as things will be better in the long run. But also thinks that the government should carry on spending £745m a year so she doesn't have to buy a TV licence (even though she could easily afford one) and thinks the two things are completely independent issues. Like the economy shrinking will not bring with it very hard choices over public spending and I'm sorry, but free TV licences for old ladies with cash on the hip isn't one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  19. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,080

    That's right. Our elections have been pretty terrible in terms of facts. Labor and conservative decision to run with project fear in the Scottish Independence ref and the repeat that fail in Brexit ref. Terrible decision. Our democracy far poorer as a result.

    What the Brexit party is doing now, different political perspective, no difference message wise, high emotion content and fact free.

    The fact our political lords and masters (1) seek to dumb down and run the show based on emotion and a fear of fellow Britain's does not make it right in one case because I agree and wrong in the other because I don't.

    Its just wrong and indicates our politicians are political hacks with no vision and no real idea of what to do.

    (1) Farage included, he has been a professional politician picking up a large pay check with generousness expense account for decades, with the standard millionaire backers the political classes use to pay for a media platform to move up the establishment food chain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  20. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,019

    Yes, yes. People you don't like should leave. Reinforcing even more Brexiteer stereotypes.

    Don't blame the messenger.

    You're angry. We get it.

    You've been made to look a fool. We get it.

    Bit don't get angry at the people who are pointing it out. Get angry at the conmen who pulled the wool over your eyes.