The "Brown Bounce" & David Cameron

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willd58 said:
Have you ever thought about going into politics Spie, serious question?
Yes, but I wouldn't. I'd tell an inappropriate joke at a dinner party and get fired ;)
 
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That's so true. You have a rather good grasp on the state of society it seems. That cannot be said for many of the politicians in power. It's a shame that there's so many potential politicians out there who can really make a difference, but they are too disillusioned.
 
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Spie said:
Then you would be wrong.


I know 3 people who are undergoing long-term care under the NHS and double that who have had to deal with an important health issue within the last 2 years. I assure you that they certainly do not feel that they "can't praise it enough".

The NHS is a mess. Even Labour accept this. Only last week a Hospital Trust had to fire 1/3 of ALL it's staff. Last year our local Hospital Trust had to shed 20% of its staff. Why? They didn't have enough money to employ them. How can these drastic measures possibly be indicative of a fully functional NHS and what impact do you think they will have on patient care?

Well that simply is not my experience, nor that of my family and friends.

Sounds like your local trust are having their problems, doesn't seem to be the case here so your sweepng statements don't hold much water I'm afraid.
 
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treebeard said:
Well that simply is not my experience, nor that of my family and friends.

Sounds like your local trust are having their problems, doesn't seem to be the case here so your sweepng statements don't hold much water I'm afraid.
What? Sweeping statements? As opposed to your factual statements? You'd do well to get down off your high horse. This forum is for INTELLIGENT debate.
 
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To say the NHS is a shambles simply isn't true. It is poorly managed, and considering the amount of public money that has been pumped into it the improvements haven't been good enough. But it has improved, and is excellent value for money. To say that it is doing a poor job is just crazy talk. The treatment available on the NHS is much better than under the Tories, with massively shortened waiting times for operations, and the satisfaction of the vast majority of people using its services is a testament to this.
 
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Spie said:
What? Sweeping statements? As opposed to your factual statements? You'd do well to get down off your high horse. This forum is for INTELLIGENT debate.

Now who is on a high horse ?

Statements like the NHS is in a mess, meaning I take it, the whole NHS. That would seem to be a sweeping statement if ever I saw one. I am just relaying the personal experiences of my friends and family which seem somewhat at odds with yours. As I said in my original post the NHS is not perfect and there are problems but people I know personally have recently had nothing but first class treatment and aftercare and speak very highly of the service they received. To say the whole thing is a mess is twaddle quite frankly.
 
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Monkey Puzzle said:
To say the NHS is a shambles simply isn't true. It is poorly managed, and considering the amount of public money that has been pumped into it the improvements haven't been good enough. But it has improved, and is excellent value for money. To say that it is doing a poor job is just crazy talk. The treatment available on the NHS is much better than under the Tories, with massively shortened waiting times for operations, and the satisfaction of the vast majority of people using its services is a testament to this.

I have to ask why the NHS are cutting staff if things are much improved? I am reading carefully here because I don't know a great deal about the NHS and it's workings but I think the question is valid.

One thing I do know about the NHS, and I see this almost every run of nightshift weekends, is the amount of money wasted on people who are ****ed up and in casualty with self-inflicted injuries where Johhny X has had too much and punched his fist into a wall or through a shop window and the taxpayer has to pick up the bill for his treatment ..... it is high time that any treatment required for such incidents comes out of the pocket of who is taking the **** in the first place. If that means a £100 surcharge on top of any NI contributions and if they are on benefits then it should be deducted at source.

See how much that bolsters NHS coffers ..... on the pig flying assumption that this wasn't considered financially oppressive or a breach of rights.
 
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I have to ask why the NHS are cutting staff if things are much improved? I am reading carefully here because I don't know a great deal about the NHS and it's workings but I think the question is valid.
Poor management doesn't help, and neither do inefficiently implemented ideas like the new NHS centralised computer system spiraling out of budget and over-schedule, shipping out work to poorly trained foreign doctors for private companies that cherry-pick easy procedures and are unable to deal with complications (which must then be treated by the NHS). Or training thousands upon thousands of junior doctors at £250,000 each, who qualify only to find they have no jobs and must go abroad to work.

However, in spite of the failings of those who manage the NHS, it does a pretty good job considering we spend about half as much of our GDP on healthcare compared to the French or Germans.

One thing I do know about the NHS, and I see this almost every run of nightshift weekends, is the amount of money wasted on people who are ****ed up and in casualty with self-inflicted injuries where Johhny X has had too much and punched his fist into a wall or through a shop window and the taxpayer has to pick up the bill for his treatment .....
Though I agree with your point to some extent, the amount of NHS spending per patient in A&E is actually very low compared to those treated in other areas of the NHS, to a large extent because a lot of the people attending A&E are less likeable.

Similarly, there are plenty of people who use GPs for social contact or present to hospitals for social reasons. Today one junior doctor told me she had just been "granny-dumped"! The old lady didn't need to be in hospital, was well to go home, and in staying was just being put at risk of getting a hospital-aquired infection. On suggesting this to her daughter (who she lives with) her daughter replied that she was about to go on holiday and there was no way she was letting her mother be discharged from hospital.
 
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KNiVES said:
That's so true. You have a rather good grasp on the state of society it seems. That cannot be said for many of the politicians in power. It's a shame that there's so many potential politicians out there who can really make a difference, but they are too disillusioned.

I think that you might be a little wrong there, I would imagine that a lot of politicians have a good grasp on the state of society, but they have to tow the party line to keep a job and slowly work their way up the ladder.
I am guessing that a lot of politicians keep a lot of opinions to themselves.
 
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One of the Conservative party's biggest donors has told the Guardian he will not give money to the party again because of David Cameron's "arrogant Old Etonian" style of leadership.
. . .
[Millionaire Sir Tom Cowie] said he had become disillusioned with Mr Cameron's leadership after what he considered a series of blunders. Among others, he cited the furore over new grammar schools Guardian Link
What on earth did he expect, "Dave" Cameron to be a "Man of the people" with the "Common touch", just like Boris the Bike :confused:
 
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Shackley said:
What on earth did he expect, "Dave" Cameron to be a "Man of the people" with the "Common touch", just like Boris the Bike :confused:

Sir Tom Cowie is a self made millionaire and has donated huge sums to the Conservatives in the past including Baroness Thatcher, John Major, William Hague, Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Howard and few of them had such an image in terms of reaching out to all ... bearing in mind that Sir Tom is from the north east of England where Mrs Thatcher and the Conservatives are despised by many sections of the workforce for closure of the pits and shipyards.

David Cameron is obviously far less appealing to Sir Tom who has donated money to the Prince's Trust instead. The severity of this should not be dismissed by Mr Cameron and he should take a good, long look at the direction of both himself and the Conservatives. I have said before that I want to like him but I just can't.

Mr Hague ... step forward. He is the only Conservative with that broad appeal and he is a man I both respect and like.
 
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Spie said:
Yes, but I wouldn't. I'd tell an inappropriate joke at a dinner party and get fired ;)
You've got allot of opinions, why not get in there and back them up? I didn't picture you as someone worried about being fired or taking some flack for them, you hold up in SC ok, why not try it for real?
 
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I voted for the Scottish Conservatives for the first time at the recent Scottish Parliament elections. Their leader up here (Annabel Goldie) ran a very convincing campaign and I think she would have made a very good First Minister. Her policies made a lot of sense to me, for example privatising Scottish Water and her plans for the reform of the drug rehabilitation service. Unfortunately there is massive hostility to the Tories up here which shows little sign of going away, so they didn't really progress much from the last elections.
However I would not vote for the Conservatives at the Westminster elections. I don't think Cameron is the right man to run the country and I don't think the party has got the same depth of talent as Labour. One of the criteria by which I judge a successful leader is that you can tell who is in charge within 10 seconds of walking into a room. The CEO of my employer (Snr Galan of Iberdrola) has unbelievable presence and authority and commands the attention of everyone in his company, and although I don't think Brown is anywhere near this I still think he beats Cameron easily.
 
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The problem for the Scottish Tories is that they'll always be tarnished with the Thatcher/Major-era when a lot of jobs in Scotland were moved to the South as their votes were seen as more important. The Tories have also lost a lot of rural support in Scotland where they traditionally had support, either to the SNP or the Liberal Democrats for whatever reason.

I don't think the Tories should go backwards in terms of leadership as they'll still get the same problems with in-fighting (Hague etc) amongst the party members. They are at fault for not sticking together to get Labour out and a strong party leader is needed to weed out those who cause the fighting.
 
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What I cannot understand is why David Cameron is seemingly doing nothing about all the bad press he's getting. He's losing in most opinion polls despite the electorate's continuing disillusionment with the incumbent Labour government, has lost the support of many Tory donors and is generally being criticised left, right and centre. Yet, he still doesn't seem to make any effort to rectify his tarnished image.

Surely he, an Oxford educated old Etonian, can realise coming out with some firm policies will do him far more good than harm? It seems as though he is almost scared of losing the support of any group of voters at the expense of being seen as phony by the entire electorate.
 
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I'm not old enough to remember much of the 80s and was not in the country during the 90s so I can't and won't comment on the Tories' time in power.

However, I can guarantee that as long as this country tries to be a military force in the world, it will not have the resources to properly support domestic policy.

The issues are far too complex, in my opinion than can be resolved simply by a change in power. Speaking as somebody who has been treated by the NHS, has a wife who works in the NHS, numerous friends who have been treated by the NHS and an uncle who is head ot the Northumbria NHS, it's going to take a bit more to fix than throwing more money at it.

Crime in this country is something that won't be solved by more off-putting sentences. The laws for gun possession are already pretty stiff, but people still pack heat without license. So what is going wrong? Education? We're all told guns are bad, drugs are bad, crime is bad, etc. but some people indulge in manners that are publicised in ever more ways. The perceived decline in morals, social concern, etc. in ths country is due to the misunderstanding of the responsibility for such education. The school doesn't do it and parents aren't doing it... so who should?

This country will be sorted out eventually, but it will take a lot more than merely a change in political party.

This country is far too interested in its history and the glory days of old, be they ten, fifteen, forty-one or one hundred years ago... and far too interested in what we were. In my personal opinion, it's time stop looking back and start thinking about what we can be.
 
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Mulder said:
What exactly do you mean? Do you know something I don't?

No - in fact I probably know a lot less than you.

However, even if it takes a hundred years, this country will eventually change for the better before, once again, getting worse.
 
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Brown despite his stealth taxes is a good leader capable of taking decisions, a quiet reserved man, which is what this country needs after Mr Blair and his showmanship and lies.

I still have 1 more proxy vote before they take it away (15 years outside UK) but international civil servant so I won't have a vote at all. (Another story :mad: ) from what I've read the NHS is overmanaged.

Before the budget was centralised and managed by a couple of 1000 in whitehall. Now since decentralisation the management has increased but the skills required were not available (how many really good managers would have wanted to work in the civil service with low wages and no perks?), so underqualified managers have been drafted in.

I see this all the time in the public sector, political decisions are taken and civil servants have to implement the changes as best they can without proper back up or a proper time frame set for the changes to be implemented.
 
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