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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 17,321

    Location: London

    A bare faced lie. I believe Corbyn brought it up at PMQs last month, they were celebrated at 2012 opening ceremony, some have been deported in error and the press/social media/everyone else seemed to be aware of the issue before May. I really despise her.

    Should she not be more concerned about the unfair deportation of her own citizens than carrying out token strikes against military installations thousands of miles away. Jezza should wipe her at PMQs this week, but he probably won't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  2. Azza

    Caporegime

    Joined: Dec 6, 2005

    Posts: 33,630

    Location: Birmingham

  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 13,955

    Real reforms won't come though if you hurt people so much that, in attempting to fix it... you have to gloss over all the complexities and just do the easy option (I mean if Labour get's in that is). The Tories went too far in the obfuscation direction (whether it was on purpose is up for debate), do you really think Labour won't go too far into the other, costing a great deal of money in the process. Would you consider that to be Labours fault or both?
     
  4. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 17,321

    Location: London

    What exactly has May done for this country? She bungled Abu Qatada's initial deportation because she got her dates wrong, her cuts to the police are starting to show (admittedly there are a number of other factors), she lost her majority, she can't fire Hunt and her policies/ineptitude/lying have all been laid bare in one fell swoop from the Windrush fiasco.

    I hope her legacy is one of the worst and most ineffective PMs, something she fully deserves.
     
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 56,832

    We need a strong figure in a centrist or close to that position to challenge her - I've not even seen any evidence for instance that Vince Cable is even alive unless I go looking - very much on the fringes news wise, etc. otherwise we are going nowhere :(
     
  6. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,017

    The caring party

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43784071
    Yet people still vote for these people.
     
  7. Jokester

    Don

    Joined: Aug 7, 2003

    Posts: 37,278

    Location: Aberdeenshire

    I don’t see a problem with capping child support at 2 kids, but the rape clause was offensive and addresses a problem that must only impact a tiny amount of cases.
     
  8. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 19,817

    I believe that the "rape clause" is meant well but poorly executed. If, and it is a big if obviously, you decide to cap child benefit at 2 children then it is patently unfair to effectively punish someone financially for being raped.
     
  9. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 44,543

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is you can't just have an exemption that has no evidence requirement. Much of the furore about the clause has been driven as a means to get the entire idea thrown out.

    Again though, the root cause of the issue is a benefit system that isn't universal and doesn't treat people equally under the law.
     
  10. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,017

    Sorry it seems I need to make it clear that the problem here is McVey saying:
    Also its not as simple as you would have it believed
    https://www.theguardian.com/society...re-over-new-child-tax-credit-form-for-victims
    But still.

    To deprive any child credit even if it is the 3rd or 4th is a bit barbaric surely and punishes the children of the low paid more than those that arent in low pay. Yet again.
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 44,543

    Location: Plymouth

    What do you think happens to people who don't receive tax credits if they have another child?
     
  12. Pudney

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2005

    Posts: 4,784

    Location: Essex

    I don't particularly see why the state needs to support low paid families who want an even larger family. I also don't particularly see why the state should support anyone who wants a large family. There are limits to the support a state should provide to its citizens.
     
  13. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,017

    Do they get to sit in the dark while contemplating their poor life choices?

    Its meant to be an investment.

    We have gone way below the limits of support a state should provide to its citizens under the guise of austerity.
     
  14. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 44,543

    Location: Plymouth

    Their income doesn't increase, their outgoings don't decrease, no one offers them a bigger house, its a matter of planning and responsibility instead.

    If the government wants to promote and support having children, it should do so universally.

    Over 50% of households are net recipients from the state, how much higher do you want to go?
     
  15. SPG

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 4,379

    Capping welfare for 2 children is absolutely fine, it is perfectly fair. (unless of course through natural means you get twins twice etc then the state should cover that also)

    If you want more than 2 children then you need to plan accordingly that means financially, I would even argue the state should only pay for one, but fairs fair.
     
  16. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 28,181


    90% of the welath is held by 1% oif the poeple.Lets change that before we starting working out a ratio of net recipients.
     
  17. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 13,955

    That better be a land value tax and not a "lolol 99% tax on the 1% pls".
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  18. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 15,427

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Welfare is overwhelming claimed by people whose circumstances have changed.
     
  19. Pudney

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2005

    Posts: 4,784

    Location: Essex

    Two children seems a fair investment. There is nothing wrong with requiring individuals to have a degree of responsibility. Perhaps three would have been a better number as it would encourage growth of the younger generation section of the population "pyramid" (if you get what I mean), but that's debatable. Nevertheless, having a limit isn't unreasonable or unfair.
     
  20. DarkHorizon472

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 1,547

    Such as becoming elderly, disability, mental / physical health issues, life crisis etc.