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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

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    Location: Cambridgeshire

    I'm not going to comment on the mental health stuff, it's not that I don't want to engage with you it's just that honestly I don't know enough to be able to hold a discussion and to be confident that I'm not accidentally misleading people.

    In terms of the behaviour of kids these days compared to historically I don't see a massive difference, and when looking at the subject I think it's useful to take a look at wider society as a whole at the same time. Whilst I don't think changes to parenting or philosophical changes to teaching and development have had a significant impact I do have concerns about a few changes to society that I fear might end up causing a problem.

    1. Cuts to school funding. Fairly self explanatory, I don't think teachers and schools are being supported by government at the moment and I think that's going to end up impacting on the life chances of children.

    2. Cuts to social and community funding, which I consider to be as important and possibly more important because of the next couple of points.

    3. A difficult economic picture, this isn't just about tax or wages or any single factor but as a whole people are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet. It shouldn't have an impact but a families finances can have a negative impact on development especially when you consider:

    4. An increase in work culture, some of which is inevitable due to globalisation, which in my view will be evened out as companies and society find better ways to manage the 24 hr work culture, but this is also due to families needing to work more to put food on the table, specifically the shift from families with only one bread winner to families with 2 working parents for various reasons I feel could be an issue, particularly in a climate where the community sectors ability to step in and help is being stripped away by cuts.

    5. A shift in society in general. This is a tricky one, people are still decent to each other on a day to day basis, we haven't transformed into monsters, but the rhetoric at the moment is becoming more and more polarised. I do wonder what impact the current climate is having on kids.

    Bit of a brain dump but that's kind of where I stand on the matter. I'm a pragmatist at heart, in my opinion society as a whole and over time is on a trajectory of improvement (blips such as the last few years aside) and it bothers me when I hear people harking on about how things would be much better if we could all hit kids again or whatever the next catch all cause of all the World's ills is identified as because it's almost always a distraction from a much bigger picture. People like to be able to blame something, but they want that something to be tangible and relatable so it has to be a narrow issue like corporal punishment in schools, and more importantly they want that issue to absolve them of blame and responsibility "well it was never a problem in my day, we did stuff right so none of this applies to me". It's never backed up by evidence, and it always distracts people from actually fixing the problem.

    Actually just to touch on your point about some aspect of society impacting the young. I've been of the opinion for a couple of years now that we're in a period of great change and flux where societal norms are changing so quickly that society can't keep up, sometimes that leads to division, and sometimes that leads to over-reaction in terms of how far we go to appease an issue. I think it's likely to calm down but there certainly does seem to be an inability in society at the moment to manage the pace of cultural change. It must be quite tricky to grow up in that kind of environment, even though you won't notice the impact at the time.
     
  2. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

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    Posts: 5,728

    @FortuitousFluke I agree with many of your points but possibly not 1 and 3, School funding has risen a lot in the latter years of New Labour and having visited some modern schools they seem like palaces compared to the 70's and 80's. Equally for all we huff and puff the economic picture is far better than for many previous generations we are immeasurably rich compared to the 70's and early 80's although the loss of mass employment has hit certain parts of our society very hard. The shift in society is a hard one for me because although I grew up in the 80's and there was change it didn't seem as profound or as fast, at least from a social interaction and attitudes point of view, as is currently taking place. I do wonder what kind of World my kids will grow up in and for all the things that are better I do worry about some of what we're losing.
     
  3. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,314

    And you think finances were better in the late fifties/sixties? The standard of living is far better today on any measure than it was back then. There was real poverty in the decades following WW2.

    Well, putting emotion to one side for a minute. Why do you believe that today's regime for punishing children is any better/worse than the corporal punishment we had in my childhood? Where's the evidence?
     
  4. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

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    Posts: 2,581

    If you think physically assaulting children leads to a positive outcome then be prepared for the legal and other consequences of that course of action.
     
  5. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,314

    That wasn't the question I posed. Such emotive language btw. Pretty indicative of today's Namby -Pamby society.

    You think previous generations were wrong, I firmly believe they were right and being the recipient of corporal punishment myself I can speak from experience.
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,112

    Eh no, almost all decisions are made on emotive terms and violently striking a child is certainly not logical, you call out "namby-pambies" when you yourself only offer the stark opposite in return, based on a different emotional response. While i also don't have the patience to look it up, i feel there's enough out there to make the statement regardless, there also seems to be a rather dense group of child sexual abusers in this time period, going by monasteries, football coaches, DJ/TV personalities and what have you, sometimes it's just better not to violently smack a child when it does little in the face of increasing accuracy in mental issues.

    What has been reported on recently with regards to hitting children/more aggressiveness in general is that the kids just become more insidious, learning better ways to hide their bad behavior, though once the abuse crosses over into Stockholm Syndrome it's a different issue altogether. Frankly if a kid is being abused at home, abusing them at school is going to make the world very very small to them indeed, if they aren't being abused at home, they likely don't need to be abused in the first place anywhere.

    Being barbaric is not a solution, we've only just begun serious research into neuroscience over the last couple centuries, violence was a solution for an age of archaic ideas, as the science reveals more, better solutions will be found. This feel's very much like the Anti-Vax argument to me as well, we know for a fact that it stops people dying of brutal diseases, yet the easily betrayed don't care.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  7. FortuitousFluke

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    To be honest I don't really feel the need to defend my position, I've got what I want, but since I've done this previously in other threads I'll bite. It does wrankle somewhat that you've side stepped previous requests to provide evidence yourself and then demanded it of me but ho hum.

    The argument isn't really that I need to prove that the current regime is better than corporal punishment, the current regime just needs to be as good.

    I did have a bunch of charts that showed exclusion, attainment, absence data etc all improving from the early nineties to about 2010 when funding cuts came into force, however all i can find now is year by year data and I don't have time to collate it for you. Feel free to check out the government websites for a peruse if you like. Improvements aren't likely to be related to a lack of corporal punishment but dispels the myth that there is a degeneration in our schools that needs to be arrested by a good caning.

    I suppose the main point is the impact it has on the kids, the general consensus is "it didn't do me any harm guv'nor" but the research shows that corporal punishment is linked to higher aggression in children, children who are beaten are 3 times more likely to physically abuse their own children, a study has shown that spanked children tend to have lower cognitive abilities though I suspect other factors are at play, and there are strong links to low self esteem, anxiety, poor social skills, and on and on. Interestingly the data suggests that the impact does not differentiate between standard "appropriate" corporal punishment, and unduly severe corporal punishment.

    Again it's all out there in various studies.

    Another interesting fact is that in the US there is a correlation between the states that allow corporal punishment in schools, and those with the highest crime rates. I can't prove causation but it's still interesting.

    So I ask again, what do you base you assessment that caning will make things better on?
     
  8. Faustus

    Soldato

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    Blimey, your response only confirms my views. How you make a connection between punishment and historical child sex abuse beggars belief.

    There are thousands of cases a year of present day child sex abuse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  9. Faustus

    Soldato

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    Posts: 5,314

    Well the very fact that previous generations thrived quite happily.

    If you take all your studies at face value then society should have died out long since, yet they didn't.

    We appear to have created an industry out of emotions and mental health. For all these studies and apparent help and understanding I think society today is in a much worse place than I can remember in my lifetime.

    Time to look at the past for fresh ideas and inspiration.
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

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  11. FortuitousFluke

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    The studies don't say that at all, you can implement something that has a negative impact without that negative impact ending the world, it still doesn't mean you should. My view, corporal punishment being implemented would not destroy the youth of today, but the net effect of doing so would be overwhelmingly negative so why do it?

    So what you're saying is you have no evidence at all beyond your feelings and nostalgia for your childhood?

    I'm glad we're clear, now we can put the discussion to bed.
     
  12. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

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    Sometimes you can be so reactionary as well as being a strawman master.

    It feels like you have stopped time in the 1990's when the question about corporal punishment first became mainstream and openly talked about. At that time people could only study the effects of corporal punishment and not the effect of no corporal punishment i.e. nobody knew on a large scale what would happen if kids had none or very little discipline. So in that sense the reports then were both biased and emotive.

    Now 20 years on we have a chance to study a society were a large percentage of kids don't have any corporal punishment anywhere. Now we can compare how 2 sets of kids and how they behave in society. We can ask ourselves are kids more or less respectful of other people, whether that be their peers or elders?

    I think when it comes to corporal punishment and any other discipline forms, the objective is to create a respect for a society hierarchy. If a society has no hierarchy then we have anarchy.
     
  13. StriderX

    Capodecina

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    But then you ignore that violent punishment isn't the only thing that's changed, prospects, correct diagnosis, family life changes, school changes and so forth, all you care about is "HIT THEM DAMNIT".

    Social mobility is at it's perception, the lowest it's been for an age, people just don't believe there's an avenue for them to be successful as previous generations and the numbers confirm this to be true. The fact is that it's the very people asking for respect that dont ******* deserve it that makes it all the more distasteful.
     
  14. chroniclard

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    My kids get punishments that dont involve beating them.
     
  15. Faustus

    Soldato

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    Which does tend to confirm my belief that people today lack the resilience I wrote of earlier. First sign of difficulty and they fold.

    Thank goodness our grandparents generation didn't fold at the first sign of difficulty.
     
  16. FortuitousFluke

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    Oh God it's the middle aged Tory version of Godwin's Law.
     
  17. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

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    Location: Düsseldorf

    Step into Tory thread..see mostly ignored posts with responses indicating we're advocating child beating.....steps away again....
     
  18. Bluntwrapped

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 20, 2011

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    Location: Livingston

    Talking of resilience - it's a bit of a shame the tories still haven't managed to track down the missing Westminster paedophile dossier.

    You'd think the extended Christmas break would've given them enough time to have a proper look.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  19. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,314

    Yet more emotive language with vacuous comments. BowdonUK made some good points but no one wants to debate it because the evidence is uncomfortable - a bit like Brexit then i.e. the only answers some have is to hurl insults and hope that wins the day.
     
  20. Bluntwrapped

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    It worked for the leave campaign didn't it?