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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 2,830

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    It's a sliding scale. That way it's much easier to map KPIs against it and construct a payment schedule.
     
  2. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,126

    I couldn't disagree. Problem there is the parents were probably the product of education in the seventies when teachers thought it was cool to be liberal and relaxed. Look where that has got us. In the sixties you would get caned at the drop of a hat. Pity those times have gone.
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 15,550

    Pity that you can't abuse children anymore... Pretty sure some teachers were murdered for it as well.
     
  4. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

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    Location: Cambridgeshire

    I'm a big fan of evidence based policy making, so if you can provide evidence to suggest that corporal punishment has a net positive effect when taking into account all relevant aspects of schooling including attainment, behaviour, child wellbeing, and any other areas you believe to be pertinent then I'll happily consider changing my stance. On the off chance that you completely fail to do that, or come back with "well you just have to look at kids today" then we can probably curb this discussion before it begins.

    I've not been introduced to anybody yet who was able to do so but I wait with baited breath.
     
  5. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,126

    He we go liberal blah blah blah, child abuse etc. If I wasn't caned once a month I thought I must be doing something wrong. I also got a hiding off my parents for doing wrong and from the village bobby. Did it damage me? Did it heck, it 'eventually' instilled reslience, respect and self-discipline in me that has stood me well throughout life.

    It's the liberal attitude since the seventies to the present day that's proved an abject failure for society.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 12:59 PM
  6. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,982

    On the other hand those are values I've managed to develop without ever being caned, etc. aside from one teacher throwing the chalk eraser at me a couple of times and light smacking from my parents.

    I've seen plenty that have gone the other way from caning, etc. as well seeming to take from it that physical violence is OK, etc. I think there is plenty of space for discipline inbetween those two extremes of caning, etc. and the liberal attitude that seems to have taken hold of late.
     
  7. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

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    Location: Cambridgeshire

    Your repeated canings suggest it didn't have an impact on your behaviour though. Odd.
     
  8. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,627

    Sounds like they've beaten the empathy out of you.
     
  9. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 13, 2003

    Posts: 14,991

    Location: UK

    I remember seeing them a lot in the high street, at least two together in the 90s. Now in the past decade you hardly ever see them about let alone the roads. Even the roads at night it's like something straight out of The Fast and the Furious at times. Not to that level but you sure can hear a lot of racing on the roads at nights for years.
     
  10. chroniclard

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 9,558

    Sounds like all common sense has been beaten out of him.
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,221

    Location: Plymouth

    Not that I'm aware of, and I'm far from convinced it would even be feasible as it stands. My post was more around what would be needed to make it work.
     
  12. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,221

    Location: Plymouth

    Not really, the judge is entirely right that the current process is wrong, but it is quite limited in scope, relating to the inflexibility of the assessment period and how it can negatively impact individiuals, and quite easy to solve by allowing flexibility of assessment periods so they don't fall near flexible pay days.

    Not defending the system, because its crap, but this isn't likely to end it completely.
     
  13. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Im fairly sure we can agree (apart from Faustus) that under funding schools/education is not good.

    https://www.theguardian.com/educati...et-crunch-education-policy-institute-analysis
     
  14. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 5,565

    Location: La France

    Used to have a local bobby back in Hertfordshire who patrolled his patch on foot or on a pushbike if he had appointments. Could spot a wrong ‘un at 500 yards in the dark. Knew who belonged where, when and with whom.

    Lived in London E18 for 20 years and never once saw a foot patrol on a residential street. Saw more of BTP at my local tube station than I did of the Met.
     
  15. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,126

    It did have an impact which I've already mentioned, an impact that was positive.

    Answer this - we hear and read lots lately about child mental health issues even in primary schools. What on earth is this all about?

    Apart from someone born with a mental health disability it was something unheard of 60 years ago. I'm absolutely steadfast in my belief that in the main childhood was much better then than it is today. Society had messed up.
     
  16. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,126

    How do you define underfunding? It could be the case that a school has received more than enough funding but hasn't made the best use of it.

    We expect the business of running a school to be handled by a headmaster/headmistress, this is clearly wrong.

    Purchasing and obtaining value for money should be the preserve of a properly qualified person.
     
  17. inogen

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    So beating kids stops them going mental?
     
  18. FortuitousFluke

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    That's assuming that the physical punishment was a significant factor in your onward development, as others have said the vast majority of people do perfectly fine in adult life without being hit as a child. What the physical punishment failed to do was improve your behaviour over the short term as a disciplinary measure, which suggests that it would have absolutely no impact on disobedience in a school environment.

    Childhood mental health is a tricky subject, for a start a large part of the issue will be that the understanding of mental health is much wider than it used to be, more understanding, greater level of diagnosis. Just because it was never talked about back in the day doesn't mean it wasn't there. For example prior to the 60's there was little understanding of dyslexia, therefore all dyslexic kids were just considered thick or unruly.

    I can't give you an answer in terms of what has caused an uptick in child mental health issues, I'm not even willing to say there has been an uptick outside of better reporting as I haven't researched it, what I am willing to say is that hitting them with a slipper is unlikely to improve matters, but you seem to have pivoted from corporal punishment to a more balanced "old society good, new society bad" mantra.

    Head teachers have access to procurement professionals through various consortia and organisations like CCS, they presumably also have access to support around things like HR etc. Overspend on sundries is unlikely to be the problem.
     
  19. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 5,527

    I agree mental health is a tricky subject but I'm deeply worried that we are diagnosing the some ends of normal distribution of childhood behaviour as medical conditions unnecessarily. It often feels like their is a faddishness to the identification of so many childhood problems that create a problem where none existed and that processes supposedly to alleviate harm create it where there was none.

    I can't decide what part the end of corporal punishment played but some aspect of societal behaviour is adversely affecting the young. I don't doubt the extremes are no worse than they ever were but I wonder if the norm is getting worse.
     
  20. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,126

    I beg to disagree re: corporal punishment. Even the act of running on a corridor would invoke the response 'go and wait outside the headmasters room', code for a whack was coming. School dining halls were very orderly and talking kept to a minimum and talking in class when the teacher was facing the blackboard would result in the blackboard rubber be transformed into a missile. You had to be pretty quick in getting your desk lid up to deflect it.

    We were there to learn and we knew it. The other side of this pact was of course your parents, who in the main supported the teachers. I was told in no uncertain terms by my parents not to come home and complain I had been caned. I was told I had been caned for a reason and as such would likely get another dose from them. I wasn't alone though, as most households were the same.