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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,403

    Dolph I do hope you think you are right and think you know what you are talking about when it comes to figures and possible outcomes and not just quoting numbers and phrases to suit your narative.
    Well 6 years of Tory rule and austerity didnt help that and was more than likely the biggest reason for the result.
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    They also wouldn't have tackled the problems that were driving calls for a referendum (especially not the ones they were responsible directly for) , so all they would be doing is kicking the can down the road.

    Remember, it wasn't just the Tories losing votes to UKIP, and the longer it went on, the stronger those calls became. That's why I said a referendum should have been held much sooner than it was, to neuter the argument before it grew legs.
     
  3. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jul/07/longer-prison-sentences-cut-crime

    Yeah, if only labour had run the economy responsibly prior to the recession so it wasnt necessary....

    Not to mention "rubbing the rights nose in diversity"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...K-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
     
  4. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,121

    I don't know about that for sure; they might have called an EU referendum to resolve the question. However, I'm pretty sure they would have called it either on the same terms as the 1979 Scottish Devolution referendum, which required 40% of the entire electorate to vote Yes as well as a majority, or requiring a simple supermajority of 60%. Either way, Leave doesn't win.
     
  5. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,688

    Deficit to gdp levels were consistently around the magical 3% for the almost the entire new labour era, something that was mildly agreeable to many economists of the time.

    Enacting Majors PFI was a stupid decision granted, but Major wanted it anyway, so not sure it mattered.

    The university push wasn’t really a bad idea, but not pushing subjects was a mistake (STEM) and not pushing apprenticeships for the less academic was silly. Making it more expensive has cost the same to the exchequer regardless.

    The thing is, that frankly labour or the tories, don’t really run any of the economy, it’s usually hands off which is why it [the crisis] happened in the first place.
     
  6. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    Running a constant deficit in a boom is something very few economists think is a good idea. In fact the imf and the oecd were warning brown from 2002 onwards.

    The choice of not using transitional controls during the eu expansion when so many other countries did is entirely on Labour.
     
  7. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    But they did in 1975?
     
  8. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 30,773

    Location: Co Durham

    When they knew there was abut 70% support in favour for staying in. Whole different world then. We had only being in for 2 and half years after being the sick man of Europe and people could see that it had already made a massive difference. I think there was only one newspaper supporting no and the vast majority of MPs on both side campaigned for remain.
     
  9. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Not at all, the Wilson government agonised over Europe and it very nearly split the party.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-europe-referendum-what-was-it-like-last-time
     
  10. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 30,773

    Location: Co Durham

    Oh there were split between in and out but I think 7 cabinet ministers campaigned for out from a total of 23. All the oppositions parties backed in. And as i said, all but one newspaper backed staying in. Since then we have had all but one newspaper being anti eu and those 30 years have made a big difference.

    And if your startling point is 70% in favour of in, then you need a massive leave campaign to swing that to 52/48 the other way.
     
  11. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Your missing the point though. The poster said 100% if Labour had been in power they would never have held a referendum and I simply replied 'but they did'.
     
  12. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 30,773

    Location: Co Durham

    `
    In 1975. Doubt they would have done in 2016. Unless they were pro leave and they wanted the result of leaving
     
  13. Bluntwrapped

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 20, 2011

    Posts: 3,188

    Location: Livingston

    I’m surprised more haven’t worked out that the Tories and Labour are the same political force, that of careerist, status quo supporting unprincipled politicians. One of two illusions to facilitate the belief we live in a democracy while pumping the tabloids and BBC with ‘Britain first’ type ****.

    Vote Labour get Tory, vote Tory get Tory. The British establishment is Tory to its rotten core.
     
  14. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,803

    During the Blair years, you aren't too far off

    The current labour party vs the Tories? Quite far apart actually.
     
  15. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Well the Labour front bench were/are, certainly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  16. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,121

    I would forgive anyone under the age of 40 or so for thinking Labour and the Tories were interchangeable. The best it got was under Gordon Brown, and even he paid too much attention to his "reasonable centrists". 2015 Labour policy was still basically "we'll do the same as the Tories, but we'll look sad while we do it" - and that was enough to get Miliband branded as a dangerous lefty.
     
  17. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    Those who forget or ignore history are sadly destined to repeat it.

    Does anyone have an example of a democratic socialist country that did not turn into a poverty stricken human rights disaster...
     
  18. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,348

    Indeed I was born in 79 and I am 40. I have basically never lived under a left wing government. Its been that long.
     
  19. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,348

    You just described the current state of england.
     
  20. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,532

    Location: Plymouth

    You may not be happy with the current state of England (I'm not either), but it's not even remotely comparable to the failures of socialist countries.