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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,340

    Spending per pupil down 6.5% you write. That figure without context means nothing. How is the taxpayer to know if the money per pupil is being spent efficiently and wisely? One suspects it isn't.

    You cannot condone fraud, however you try to dress it up.
     
  2. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,740

    Easily, the fact that teachers have to pay out of their own pocket or ask parents to pony up cash is an easy indication that they aren’t just ******* it up the wall.

    Sometimes whole subjects have to be abandoned because they can’t find or retain enough teachers either.

    You keep trying to downplay it with spooky mysterious what ifs, then going straight for the negative position regardless... this isn’t a game, these children are being failed because the adult children can’t stop moaning about things that barely happen.
     
  3. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,842

    Location: Vvardenfell


    You are correct: a large proportion of it is being thrown at Academies and Free schools ("spaffed" is the expression, apparently) in the name of dogma. The Tories don't care if comprehensives fail as long as their two flagships succeed.
     
  4. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    Because LEAs were the height of economic efficiency?

    Pull the other one, its got bells on.
     
  5. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    The two things aren't mutually exclusive. One can very easily lead to the other, especially if there is an ideological tendancy to blame the government of the day as a scapegoat.

    The problem is education has been mismanaged for many years and used as a political football for nearly as long.

    There were and are huge differences in per pupil funding between different schools, and huge differences in the success of schools managing their budgets, but little correlation between the two.

    What's needed is a clear, simple, fair funding formula based on consistent per pupil funding that allows clear financial planning to be undertaken.
     
  6. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,842

    Location: Vvardenfell


    No, and neither are Academies. As should be obvious from the various headlines about them. But since you believe the dogma (as you do with almost all economically right-wing dogma) you are back to repeating "private good, public bad". And since I know you are about to say it, no, I do not necessarily believe the opposite.

    And free schools are a boondoggle, bringing in loads of religious fundimentalist schools at taxpayer expense.

    But all this misses the point: that the Tories have systematically robbed the public sector schools of funds they need, in order to pay for achademy schools and free schools, most of which are in better off areas, while using that money to help a smaller number of pupils than it covered at the state schools. I'm struggling to work out how this is more efficient? It's almost is if they were moving funds from schools where parents tend to vote Labour to ones where they tend to vote Conservative. Aside from rigging the system to make the privatisation of schools look like a good policy. LIke the privatisation of Probations, the privatisation of Prisons, etc. As I said, twisting the system to support dogma. As someone correctly called it: "policy-based evidence".
     
  7. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    You appear to forget that school funding (as with many other types of government spending) was highly unequal before the government started. So while what you say isn't necessarily untrue, it isnt the full picture if you ignore the fact that most of the schools that lost funding were receiving much more per pupil than the other schools in the first place.

    https://fullfact.org/education/spending-schools-england/

    There is also huge variation in how well schools, academy trusts and leas actually use the resources provided, manage their budgets vs services provided and so on that mean simply increasing budgets doesn't necessarily provide the benefits expected, because if schools, academy trusts and leas are not spending money well now, the likelihood of them spending additional cash well is also slim.

    I don't doubt there are some good leas, despite their reputation. I know there are some good academy trusts, just as there are undoubtably some bad ones. The root cause of the problem is not the structures, but an ongoing failure to hold poor management to account irrespective of structure.

    One thing that probably would help is to forcibly broaden the governance structure of schools, where those involved in school governor roles who are not tightly involved in the education system in some way is very much the minority, which in turn leads to group think and a failure to apply best practice in common areas because they have no experience of it.
     
  8. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,740

    nvm
     
  9. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    If it was actually done based on the current stats, it would be somewhat justifiable. It isn't.

    Likewise just giving more money doesn't improve outcomes unless it's spent well.
     
  10. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,803

    No surprise that a person that blames both Labour and the EU for Mays deal is denying/defending the education crisis based on ideology .

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/23/calls-grow-for-public-inquiry-into-brexit
    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...mainers-brexiters-say-theresa-may-in-end-days
    Interesting times indeed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    I want to (and am involved locally in) solve the crisis. The first thing you have to do in order to solve a crisis is make an effort to understand what the actual problems are, whether they are global or local, what the variations are and so on.

    To do anything else is not trying to solve or address the problem, it is using children as a political football. I believe children deserve better than that. Clearly you do not.
     
  12. Harlequin

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 17, 2004

    Posts: 2,944

    Location: Eastbourne , East Sussex.


    Very Antony Giddens there! , Sorry I`ll leave now :p
     
  13. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,803

    I do believe that. Thats why I dont vote Tory. Its all very well saying throwing money at it wont solve it, while ignoring that reducing it is going to damage it for sure. Damaging political and economical ideology has no place in the lives of children and/or the vulnerable.
     
  14. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,545

    There is a world of difference between accusations of Islamophobia (which is based on hatred of a religion) and Anti-Semitism which frequently relates to the behaviour of the expansionist Israeli Government. However, one is acceptable in the Tory party and the other is regularly used as a way to attack the democratically elected Leader of the Labour Party.
     
  15. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,340

    Surely that applies just as much to Labour as it does to any political party?
     
  16. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,803

    Not surprising you are again missing the point. The Tories are in charge.

    https://www.theguardian.com/educati...sis-blocked-drains-mystery-stinks-budget-cuts
    Im assuming then like Dolph you think Labour spent too much money on schools?
     
  17. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,796

    Location: Plymouth

    As usual, you totally miss the point and reply to a point you've made up in your head based on your own partisan ideas rather than addressing the point I actually made.
     
  18. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,084

    Less money per pupil means larger class sizes and less subject choices. Private schools consistently do better because they have smaller class sizes and a wider range 0f subjects. They can afford this because they get something like 3-8 times more cash per student depending on the school.
     
  19. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,340

  20. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,340

    My view is national education has been failing children for decades, in spite of the huge amounts of cash spent.

    Clearly more money isn't the magic bullet some appear to think. We need a root and branch reform where we get best value for money for every pound spent.

    We need to view education more like a business.