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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 11,833

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Not sure why any of them bothered at this stage. Not like they will swing any voters with this method.
     
  2. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,085

    I don't get the fanboying of Rory Stewart at all - it is easy to say what people want to hear, easy to point out the problems i.e. carers not having enough time with the person they are caring for but I'm not hearing anything beyond the superficial - selling the false dreams he claims he isn't. We need radical ways to solve these issues not just the suggestion of radical changes.
     
  3. Azza

    Caporegime

    Joined: Dec 6, 2005

    Posts: 34,350

    Location: Birmingham

    You just have to look at his voting record on welfare in particular to see that this is just a pantomime performance from him.
     
  4. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,503

    ^
    This

    And despite Mr Jacks laughable derision of BoJo not turning up. It was probably for the best because turning up and bickering with other Tory MP's would have harmed him more than not turning up.
     
  5. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,499

    Location: Midlands

    If he cannot stand up to his peers on a TV session then how can he possibly have the ability and balls to lead a country both to its own people and the international community. For all he resembles Trump, Trump has never shied away from the public eye, even when he acts like a grade A-tool.
     
  6. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,873

    I wouldn't say there was a winner tonight.

    But there was a loser. Take a bow, Michael Gove. He came across really, really badly. He seemed wired, and many of his speeches sounded rehearsed and ingenuine.

    Surprise of the night was Sajid Javid. I had him pegged as the most pointless candidate left in the running, not being politically distinct enough from Hunt or Gove on Brexit. But he showed he can hold his own.

    Stewart also seems like a breath of fresh air; honest, open, determined to break the political mold in a Corbyn-esque fashion. I'm left unsure if it's genuine, or a calculated move to set himself apart from the competition. But it seems to be working.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  7. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,068

    Demonstration of strategic thinking and self-control.

    Not qualities associated with Boris. Lyton Crosby must have him strapped to a gurney in a basement somewhere.
     
  8. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    Boris is quite able to present himself and suggestion that has 'shied away from the public eye' are risible.

    He's literally one of the most publicised and outspoken Tories going.

    He (or at least his advisors) are wise enough however to realise that making a brave but potentially pointless appearance isn't in his interests when he's far in the lead in the voting stakes with the people who actually matter

    Personally I think that under the jovial exterior that Boris is a rather calculating operator who knows full well what he's up to
     
  9. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,392

    Javid is one of my more preferable candidates for Tory leader.

    Seems reasonably competent and amiable (if only in a relative sense), not a complete robot of buffon and as a Brucie Bonus his personal circumstances would be a wonderful troll for the 'progressives' in parties like Labour.

    A real example that group identities (especially religious/ cultural) don't have to dictate a persons political beliefs or position in the UK

    It was also be interesting to see him meeting Trump (as POTUS) if he was ever PM
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  10. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,754

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Britain's best post war Prime Minister was famously lacking in Charisma, yet he radically transformed Britain, creating the NHS and setting the mood music for the next forty years. This preference for a "strong leader" is not helping Britain's democracy.
     
  11. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

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    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Hard to say. On its own it just makes him look a bit lame, but it goes alongside a background of him being accused of hiding from the press and public during the campaign. That's not a good look. Whether it cuts through to the Tory Faithful, I don't know.
     
  12. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

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    Location: Kiel, Germany

    For the most part, voting records tell you nothing but what the whip was on a particular vote. Doubly so for anyone in cabinet where the tradition of collective responsibility applies. Rightly or wrongly, in our party system MPs mostly accept the decisions made by the party as a whole and vote with the party.
     
  13. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,426

    May pulled the same stunt at the last election, look how that worked out for her.
     
  14. h4rm0ny

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 25, 2011

    Posts: 5,475

    Location: Yorkshire and proud of it!

    Jeremy Hunt was right to call out the presenter on raising the cocaine story. But what I really liked was the supportive audience reaction to his defence. I'm sure he and others noticed that and I hope the party as a whole starts to notice that. The press may love to "expose" Gove for having used cocaine at one point but the electorate (at least those who bother to vote) don't care half-so-much. Cocaine is a bad habit but it's not like Gove having tried it once doesn't matter. So hopefully the Tory party don't worry about this anymore. Not that I particularly want Gove to win but I don't want our country's leadership to be determined by such factors.

    It reminds me of the interviews the BBC did of Blair, Major and Ashdown where each was filmed separately and asked set questions. One was "Have you ever tried illegal drugs". Tony Blair gave some rambling non-answer about the harm that drugs do. Major said "No, never tried them" and you believed him! :D And Paddy Ashdown just laughed and replied "you can't expect me to answer that on national television". It matters even less, today.

    I've always had a good impression of Javid and I wouldn't be displeased to see him win. I don't think his race matters that much to the rest of the party. He wouldn't be as high up in the party as he is were the Tory MPs as racist as you suggest. I remember my father recollecting how all the Labour supporters in his office were celebrating when Margaret Thatcher became leader of the Conservatives because they believed that a woman would never get elected as Prime Minister. Frankly, I find the Labour party far more obsessed with identity politics than the Conservatives. Conservatives care more about money than your skin colour. Also, Sajid embodies the principle that all us Right Wing types profess to believe: That we care about merit first and foremost and that with a good work ethic and self-discipline you can succeed. So my feeling is that he's quite respected. I mean he's Home Secretary, former Secretary of State positions for Housing, Business, President of the Board of Trade, successful career in the treasury. I mean would you really appoint someone to such senior positions where they have to work with the rest of the party closely day in day out, if you thought everyone would be working against him because he isn't White? I also have to say I admire Sajid's quick and polite rebuff when the host attempted to make something out of Sajid's race. He didn't say that race never came up or he hadn't face issued because of it, but he very clearly indicated it wasn't a game he wanted to play and that he wanted people to listen to what he actually said not play identity politics and moved the conversation on. Which is as much to say "race shouldn't matter" and he's right - spot on answer.

    Obviously. But on Raab I think his key point is true. How can we negotiate a position when we lead with "we'll accept anything". Which is logically what we're saying when we state we will not leave without a deal. He doesn't want to leave without some arrangement but he is correct in saying that unless the EU believe it's a real possibility, they have little incentive to compromise.

    He did let them get away with pretty much whatever they wanted. But on the upside it's nice to get a discussion where it's not all about adversarial point scoring for once.

    Totally agree. He gets compared to Trump a lot and less intelligent / informed supporters of the latter think Boris is cut from the same cloth. But I'm actually okay with Trump. Boris should be ejected from politics with a rocket. Trump, like how he does it or not, is actually trying to do what's best for his country. Sometimes to the detriment of other countries but he does represent his own. Boris has all the principles of an Earthworm and I'm pretty sure he'd sell every last corner of Britain to America if he's given the chance. I think he wants out of Europe so that he can line his pockets forging new deals with American business (including the NHS).

    Agreed. I'm more charitable in that I don't think his rehearsed speeches indicate he's dishonest or doesn't mean them. Merely that he knows he's not a Great Leader type and has been consciously trying to appear that because he think's he must. He should take a leaf out of Rory Stewart's book. I'm not sure I fully trust Stewart but his manner and delivery in the show was effortless.

    I'm not sure either but it definitely worked. I rarely assess people on other than their actual position or actions, but I could feel myself being swayed by his manner during that. Quite unsettling, honestly. I seldom like people.

    Ehhhh... We get him appearing and doing his affable, patriotic buffoon performance that is true. But we see very little of the real Boris Johnson. And refusal to participate in this debate ties into that. He is trying to appeal to the soundbite mob. He has little to gain and much to lose by getting bogged down in a serious intellectual debate with his rivals. Not that this was that, mind you, but it at least had a civil tone and the audience were intelligent people I thought. Not the best environment for Boarish Johnson.

    You're not wrong - I just wish you were.

    Without doubt. I recall someone asking Ian Hislop if Boris Johnson was a smart person pretending to be an idiot or an idiot pretending to be a smart person. Ian Hislop replied "yes."

    We can hope. I think what it comes down to is that the Tories are scared - they're facing the possibility of being slaughtered at the next General Election. They've already faced a massacre in local elections. They think if they don't correct course to appease the Brexit party, it's going to be a disastrous Corbyn government to follow. And they think that Boris Johnson is their best chance of doing that. Sadly, I fear they are right on all counts.
     
  15. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,503


    What you fail to see is that all the other candidates are forward-facing as if it was a General Election and appealing to the public. They totally got this wrong, what they needed to do is appeal directly to other Tory MP's and it's members. This is what Boris is doing, he's not appealing to you, you're not the target audience, and your opinion means bugger all to him and it doesn't have to. This is why he's so far ahead and almost certain to win.
     
  16. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,121

    I think in the final 2, Boris vs.. I think from hard to easy opponent will be;

    Raab
    Gove
    Hammond
    Saj
    Stewart
     
  17. jpaul

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 7,316

    I think the DUP/Arlene etc and indeed the EU negotiators Barnier. could contribute some opinion on Boris' competency, but they seem strangely quiet at the moment.
     
  18. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

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    They would just get accused of interfering if they did.
     
  19. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,121

    Why would they give their opinions when if he becomes leader, prime minister, they have to work with him?

    These TV debates are a bad idea. They shouldnt be debating each other. They should be putting their pitch forward to the Tory members.
     
  20. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

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    Location: West Sussex, England

    You mean Hunt don't you as Hammond isn't in it?

    I'd say it would then be Boris vs..

    Raab
    Hunt
    Gove
    Stewart
    Saj