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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 11,251

    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    One of the biggest losers in this whole sorry prices is the Conservative Party itself. No matter they're differing views, I would be astonished if the party chair, or the chairs of the 1922 Committee, didn't get them together before hand and remind them that they were representing the party first and foremost, given that this was a live broadcast to the whole nation. This could have been the best free advertising that the Conservative Party could get, but if they did, then the instructions clearly didn't sink in.

    Instead they gave a performance that was a microcosm of so many things that have disillusioned so many people. Bickering, talking over each other, half-hearted soundbites based on untruths. There really doesn't appear to be any uniting of this party in the future - papering over the European cracks is the very best that they could hope for and that only works with a huge parliamentary democracy.

    Corbyn's reformed the key parts of the Labor Party to his agenda, but it hasn't yet been fully tested at parliament because they're a minority and don't really have an agenda other than to let the government continue to fail. The Conservative Party needs to do the same - either lance or split from the hard line Euro-sceptics of the ERG and move forward as a more moderate party - if they're to be capable of harnessing more reasoned consensus.

    I thought that they were all poor last night. Stewart still comes across as the most rational candidate to me, but even if he were to win I could never vote for the party knowing that it contains the bigoted toxicity of others who were present last night, and many more in office.
     
  2. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,116

    It doesn't matter. Unless MPs switch support from Boris he will be in the top two, and the membership will vote him in as leader no matter who else is on the docket.
     
  3. Unseul

    Hitman

    Joined: Jun 18, 2018

    Posts: 518

    Is there anything stopping Boris from "lending" MP votes to other candidates, in order to sabotage someone else, so they're kicked out?
     
  4. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,129

    This is just my take on whats happening in the bigger picture.

    I can't help but think a lot of these decisions about Brexit and the next step is more about keeping Corbyn out. Whether people think Corbyn is great or not, one thing is clear, that if he ever becomes prime minister our traditional relations with other countries, especially America, Israel, Russia and Iran, will change dramatically. When the US secretary of state Mike Pompeo was asked about Corbyn potentially being the future prime minister he said the US wouldnt let it happen (or words to that effect). The potential for Corbyn to become prime minister would shock the establishment.

    I long suspected the Tories never wanted Brexit. The official line is Cameron only called the referendum as a way to shut up Farage/UKIP. The bill was introduced by Hammond, and the official government material sent out to everyone made the case to stay in. I think all this incompetance by May as just been about getting to a position were she can say "oh well, we tried our best.. we'll have to cancel it". But the Tory 'high command' never expected the issue to still be running hot, lead by an increasing number of their own MP's that eventually went in to open revolt against her. The deal May put forward was a compromised fudge that tried to still keep us in by the back door.

    But the Tories didn't realise that during this fudge the public opinion of them dropped. They set off down a path they didn't expect and now they don't have the numbers to push through any Brexit deal in the current parliament. They just don't have the numbers. Corbyn himself as played his cards to his chest by not helping out a genuine compromise deal, even though he personally doesn't like the EU he can see if he sits on the fence then it might push things towards a GE.

    So at the moment, whoever wins this prime minister contest are all going to be facing the same situation May had. The only way out of it is to change the voting numbers in parliament, and the only way that can happen is via a GE. But then that brings up the real possibility of a Corbyn prime minister.
     
  5. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 11,864

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Its amusing, no matter how bad the Tories are(and they are absolutely shanking the country, fact), people still think Corbyn would be worse. :p Not a Corbyn fan mind, think Labour need a new leader.
     
  6. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,445

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Except the last thing the Tories want is a GE so the only way to deliver Brexit looks like proroguing Parliament although that is not a fore gone conclusion of success either, nor is it the best solution to putting the issue to rest. It really makes no difference who becomes PM as one way or another I think there will be a VONC or the clock will run down and there will most likely be another extension, until we limp to another GE. Eventually like it or not the Tories are going to run out of road and end up in a GE anyway so it's all damage limitation from now until then. It will be catastrophic for Tories if we're still not out come the next GE. Their credibility is in tatters since this issue not making any progress for such a long time. The irony is BJ getting a stab at the top job now when that and a pro Brexit cabinet would have been the best plan 3 years ago. Am rather surprised BJ is actually running for PM since it's likely to be a poison chalice unless he has something remarkable he's keeping in reserve as far as negotiating our future EU relationship and which still stands up to us being an independent UK post Brexit.
     
  7. singularity

    Hitman

    Joined: Apr 2, 2007

    Posts: 908

    Agreed, in the 'debate' when pushed Boris did waiver on the 31 October. I am worried that when he says we must leave he actually means we must try to leave.
     
  8. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,070

    Boris has a clear track record of saying what he thinks people want to hear to obtain ranking in the party. His history of holding office does not suggest clear effective leadership and doing the detail is part of the way he works.

    I think he will just roll the dice and make a last minute calculation of what is in his interested rather than the counties to stay in power.

    Most worrying aspect of Boris, focused entirely on being top boy, regardless of the cost.
     
  9. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,644

    This would be by far the most dangerous to democracy in this country than anything else. It will set a precedent which can be used down the line by any party at any time. Imagine a Corbyn Govt that decides to go full hard core renationalisation and prorogues Parliament when they disagree. Anytime they disagree. Very, very dangerous precedent.
     
  10. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,445

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Which is why I also said...

    However, the Tories need to honour leaving the EU although the present parliament still has the same deadlock issue on Brexit as it had before TM's resignation. If they don't deliver Brexit they will hemorrhage votes to TBP at next GE and Labour could win although I think Labour still has a hurdle to overcome in making their position clear and will also suffer from the vote being split on remain with LD etc.
     
  11. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,445

    Location: West Sussex, England

    The best thing the Tories could probably do is to reform the political system to PR, that offers them at least some damage limitation from forming a possible coalition to take Brexit forward with.
     
  12. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,644

    That is still the problem. How are you going to do it? Brexit has morphed from leaving with a deal to leaving with no deal and Parliament will not let that pass as it will damage the country.
     
  13. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 2,688

    Purely from a Conservative point of view FPTP suits them as it has kept the smaller parties out of any kind of power. PR removes this protection and if it followed current national polling would be the end of brexit which the ERG faction would not allow. The Conservatives are as normal trapped by their historical internal politics made far worse by a hung parliament.
     
  14. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,644

    There is no chance the two parties will do PR as they will lose power and influence.
     
  15. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,070




    Minority government attempting to brute force major constitutional change to keep itself alive.

    Its not exactly great leadership is it, regardless of the merits of PR (edit. or indeed Brexit if you consider this idea to be of merit)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    Jesus Singularity, do you hate young people or something? Bloody hell, did they **** in your cereal to be so abusively toxic when talking about them?

    There was no need for your comments at all, don't know why you're so rattled by a section of society.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  17. Colonel_Klinck

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 3, 2007

    Posts: 750

    Location: London, UK

    This says it all. Not fit to govern.

     
  18. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,672

    If they prorogue parliament it really will be time to go to the frontlines.
     
  19. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,644

    Only Raab was mad enough to do it. The rest will not.
     
  20. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,113

    There is a key difference for me - the extremes the Tories would go to while very bad for the country is, relatively speaking, easier to come back from - if you look at countries that have previously gone that direction when the inevitable collapse happens they've tended to bounce back within a couple of decades to healthy functioning countries, you look at the countries that have gone down the more extremes of the kind of direction Corbyn wants and they are in a pitiful position even 30+ years on and take a very long time to recover (if they do at all).

    That is why I'm a lot more concerned about Corbyn than the Tories in that respect but I also acknowledge that under the more extremes the Tories could go it would be (and increasingly is) very rough for many of the less fortunate or more vulnerable segments of society.