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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,270

    Atleast it would be sane.
     
  2. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    Nothing wrong with a bit of good old chippy exceptionalism.

    Its the great spirits way of identifying those of us with refined and proper taste and those among us who are vinegar smelling peasants with a chip on their shoulder.

    If the great spirit intended us all to douse vinegar on our chips then the great spirit of the people would have created us all equally as like unto fools, knaves and madmen.
     
  3. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,264

    We're already way post Godwin in this thread, but now the last candidate who appeared to be living in the real world has gone I'm seeing a future like those Nazi rallies towards the end of the war. Everyone knows they are going to lose but they applaud madly as their leader promises to destroy traitors and lead them to the final victory...
     
  4. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,144

    Where would you suggest? Intrigued to know where to see Brexiteers that are different to these Brexiteers...

    https://youtu.be/wO_Un-lKwPM

    (warning - it's a C4 news reports but includes Brexiteers swearing and requesting sexual acts from children)
     
  5. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,661

    Location: Plymouth

    Which is still a better plan than driving towards no deal. Remember, there is no alternative deal available. Its no deal, withdrawal agreement, or revoke article 50. They are the only options available to anyone, Tory, labour or other.
     
  6. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,769

    Boris is going to put the Tories out of power for a long time. He will completely turn off moderate Tories and Remainers, the people he actually needs to win. Brexiteers who want No Deal, are not enough to win a majority.
     
  7. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,764

    Not sure I agree that TM's deal is really "better" - less of an abrupt impact but potentially shackles us more in the long term than no deal - which is kind of ironic.

    I see it more like the build upto WW2 than the end of Nazi Germany - using the man on the street to bat away any intellectual or reason. And the funny thing is I bet quite a few of these people wonder how the Germans "let it happen".
     
  8. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 13, 2003

    Posts: 15,600

    Location: UK

    Erase the boomer legacy? Explain...
     
  9. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    He did seem to suggest from other things he said that his general stance was to work from what is on the table and negotiate, seek wide consensus. Its certainly what is required.
    Suggests to use T.M plan as a start point rather than the end of negotiation.

    I don't know enough about him to believe what he said, but it struck me as the most sensible and pragmatic solution present in the debate.

    If I have read what he is saying correctly that is.
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,270

    Certainly wont be seen in the same light as the one before them, if it requires engineering every instance of their existence on the internet and in public as a disgrace then i'm entirely in the mood for it.

    Imaging the legacy being that you're hated by every future generation.
     
  11. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,512

    The country is not healthy tho, just parts of it are.

    6am this morning I went to the tesco garage near me to get some food, and not an entirely unusual sight in my area a lady was begging everyone for a cigarette, she was so desperate she started undoing buttons on her top before she got kicked out the store.

    The country has been a mess for decades, so this 30 years you on about is already in play, you just dont see because its "im alright jack".

    Now we dont know if corbyn will be a success as he hasnt had a chance, I think its unreasonable to say something like "ahh but the last left wing government", that was 50 years ago. Corbyn's plans arent even extreme, his planned taxation is to go back to 2008 levels, and his spending is not extreme based on historical levels either. Its just seen as extreme by those who want constant cuts. Even if something went wrong economically we would at least have new infrastructure to show for it, new social homes etc. So its not like it would be all for nothing.

    Having good public services and stable affordable home's is the foundation of society. You cannot put a price on it.
     
  12. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    Ensure the party and other parties adopt social democracy (in my opinion). Ditch the idea that one individual embodies the entirety of a political party it does not reflect the reality of politics or the make up of political parties.
    With Corbin he is old school 80's left, hardly the future or something to get in any way excited about.

    Anxiety here in large part is as much down to how right wing we have become as a nation.

    What we have lost is the ability to identify our concept of self with society we are instead individuals in a hostile world.

    We can alter that sense of ourselves and our society for the better. Things can change. Things can be better than the this nightmare, we have created for ourselves where dog always eats dog.
     
  13. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,764

    You are missing the point of what I'm talking about - I'm not dismissive of the current situation but some things will make it far easier or far harder in the long run if and when the right people are in place to do something about it to actually recover from. A lurch to more extreme Tory ideology might widen the gap between rich and poor but much of that wealth and industry is still there to potentially be utilised under a more socially responsible government while some other approaches would in pursuit of a proven broken ideology decimate that wealth for unsustainable short term gains and long term pain.

    Now I'm not claiming Corbyn is the Devil LOL but to illustrate my point even the Devil can quote scripture - you need to look beyond the plans presented and take into account the nature of the man and those behind him who have long advocated much more radical measures and there is no reason to think they won't push towards those ends and if you look at the current state the country is in all bets are off when it comes to how far they'd get - with the positions of influence they and like minded people have within the Labour party and the current state of the electorate it would be naive to think those and other aspects can be an assurance of holding the brakes on any more extreme aspects.

    Sure we don't know how things would unfold under Corbyn, he might even surprise me but there is too much that should be sounding a note of caution to any reasonable person - if you look into detail on some of the tax stuff for instance and take into account what people like Corbyn and John McDonnell have talked about in conjunction to it the initial plans while reasonable enough are intended as the first phase in easing in a more radical approach involving aspects like LVT.

    Problem is this requires a society with a broader social consciousness and atleast herd level* conscientiousness to move things generally in a direction that gets the best results for society... just ain't happening in this country. It is one of the common points of failure for attempts to brute force past human nature with application of Communism.


    * Kind of failing to illustrate what I mean here - but like herd immunity enough people doing the right thing it provides protection against the ones that aren't and drags everyone in the right direction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  14. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,298

    So who do people think will be the final two? We'll know by tomorrow at 6pm. There will be 2 votes tomorrow, one in the morning and one at the usual time.

    Johnson, Hunt, Javid and Gove still in.

    I think Javid will get knocked out in the morning. Even if he got all of Stewarts votes it wouldnt be enough to catch up to Hunt and Gove.

    I think the main battle tomorrow will be between Hunt and Gove.
     
  15. Dis86

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 23, 2011

    Posts: 20,400

    Location: Northern England

    Christ...hunt or gove. Both utterly incompetent.
     
  16. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,223

    Not being rude I can't make sense of it.

    Social = communism. Its not the case. The major criticism of social democracy by socialists is that it attempts to strengthen capitalism and fails in the Marxist goal of replacing capitalism with a socialist state

    Bias here in regard to the word social, you have to fabricate history and European political history to make it or simply be unaware of the history and buy into the McCarthy red under the bed propaganda spouted by the more polemic and ahistorical mouthpieces of the ancient and justified order of woo woo.

    Past human nature. ? Not sure what you mean.

    By ourselves I literally meant self or consciousness. That is not something that can be subject to brute force. I am not the C.I.A or suggesting, drugs interrogation and hypnosis by playing tapes of mao tse tung.

    Its entirely possible to change our minds alter the way we think and alter the state we live in.
    It is of course not certain.

    ......................
    Tomorrow: when Gove looks like the lesser evil you know you are in a very very bad place.
    Hunt has lived up to the mispronunciation of his name, with his dog whistle jogging Iron man routine for my taste.
     
  17. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,948

    Difficult.

    I suspect it might wind up as Johnson v Hunt. Hunt will lose well, remaining polite throughout the contest. In return, hell be given another big cabinet position (Chancellor?).

    Johnson v Gove has the potential to become a really nasty fight, between two people who likely have considerable dirt on one another. For that reason, I think Gove may struggle to get enough support. But I may be wrong.
     
  18. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,764

    I wasn't trying to associate social(ism) with Communism but it is a common point of failure that you can't just bypass human nature in the way some of these further left ideologies ultimately attempt to - ironically sometimes due to actually identifying those failings as a problem. I was just saying it is a common failure point.

    Ultimately society in this county is a poor fit for what you were talking about to be a success - it would need a society that already has a higher degree of social awareness, etc.
     
  19. satchef1

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 17, 2009

    Posts: 3,948

    This describes so many political ideas. Like pretty much any time someone points at Scandinavian countries. Why can't we have a society like theirs? Simple. This country is full of ass holes. And that is something which would take decades of sustained effort to change (i.e. ain't going to happen).
     
  20. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,512

    Not a bad response Rroff, and I do agree there is always a chance more radical stuff happens later after his feet are under the table, but given the failures we have now and the direction the tories are going in personally I think the chance should be given, if he goes too radical I expect he would lose his first election and not last more than 5 years. We have had 40 years of right/centre right politics which has led to some quite bad imbalances in the system that needs a left wing government to put back in check. If we had 40 years of left wing I would likely be advocating a right wing government for the same reasons.