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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,200

    Personally I find it quite frustrating as I think someone like Corbyn but with a good pragmatic grounding would do a lot of good for the country but there doesn't seem to be anyone within Labour currently like that who also has any chance of rising to a leadership position.

    For instance if Corbyn had his way he'd get rid of our nuclear deterrent tomorrow while what we really need is someone who'd work towards ensuring that we had an efficient, money well spent, appropriate deterrent while also working towards a theoretical world where such a deterrent wouldn't be necessary with improving foreign relationships, etc. (and more actively working with other countries to minimise proliferation).
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  2. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,078

    Human nature is a metaphysical concept (also seriously contested in philosophy and science) as an appeal to nature is a rhetorical tactic. A is natural (therefore it is good) B is unnatural (therefore it is bad and certainly wrong)

    Such things require judgement they are not known and obvious facts and should not be treated as such.

    A different form of this type of argument was deployed to support the idea that language had to be a God Given as it required reason.

    All that is required is a desire for change. People have to make up their own minds and that may look different from my own thoughts and ideas, but you hope things change for the better.

    (edit) p.s. thanks Rroff it forces me to have think: I think the issue may be that in this system of thought, an ethical value (an abstraction) is not considered 'successful' until it becomes 'naturalized' and then deployed as a 'fact.' The issue here that the relationship between biology and the origin of abstract reasoning is a work in progress rather than a matter of fact or common sense.

    Where do we go from here? Alter how we think about the nature and relationship of things. Reason it out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  3. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,205

    Location: Here and There...

    This is why we don’t have a strong leader type model old JC can try all he likes to get rid of the nuclear deterrent but it won’t Pass even with a labour majority.
     
  4. Scania

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 25, 2004

    Posts: 23,191

    Location: On the road....

    Glad Stewart is gone, he talked a lot of sense but ultimately was a remainer and therefore would to my eyes have been May Mk2.

    The remaining field though, blimey, not much inspiration there tbh.

    I still think any of them would be a better PM than Corbyn, but that’s far from praise on any of them.

    I’m hoping Johnson proves everyone wrong and turns out to be the leader we need, I can’t see it though.
     
  5. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,017

    I agree. We need Boris or Gove. Someone who nobody can deny is a Brexiteer.

    Whatever flavour we get, Brexit is going to be a shambles, and if the UK is to protect itself from the leveraging of ignorance that caused it, the endeavour needs to be unshirkable.
     
  6. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,149

    I think the next leadership vote result is coming at 1pm today.
     
  7. Nitefly

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Sep 24, 2005

    Posts: 30,736

    I think Brexit is going to be the final chapter in our current culture of toxicity.
     
  8. robfosters

    Caporegime

    Joined: Dec 1, 2010

    Posts: 29,032

    Location: Welling, London

    Javid out. Gove now in second place by 2 votes. That will be a good battle tonight. Let the begging begin.

    Over half of tory MP's now backing Boris. Boris would rather Hunt in the final two, so his team might be trying to push some votes for Hunt to ensure he beats Gove.

    It's all very conniving and underhand isn't it?
     
  9. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,285

    Location: Cambridge

    Boris will try to fix it so it's himself and Hunt, but there are enough people who dislike Boris that they might wish to see him squirm.
     
  10. BowdonUK

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,149

    I think the question a lot of Conservative MP's are wondering is who is best to take on Corbyn. Boris is the only one who as been Mayor of a left wing place, London, and at the time appeared to do very well. Anyone else, Gove or Hunt have no experience.

    I'm not sure how Hunt voted on May's deal but we know Gove was the first MP to back her plan, giving it validity (a conspiracy mind might think the meeting was planned like that before hand).

    I think if its Boris vs Gove then it's obvious Gove is going to be taking personal jabs at Boris. This won't go down well with the Tory members. So unless he accepts he's the weaker candidate, he needs to stick to his own ideas and policies.
     
  11. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,871

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...son-s-brexit-plan-mps-aren-t-really-listening

     
  12. ron3003

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 25, 2006

    Posts: 1,458

    Location: Skegness

  13. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,514

    The clue is in the language used "one a committed Brexiteer, the other a pro-European moderate"

    Making out the pro-European out to be sensible one while the other isn't, classic liberalist propaganda
     
  14. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,200

    Don't think it that unfair - a good proportion of leave people are committed and will never take another position while there are plenty of pro-European people who aren't married to Europe and will listen to a convincing argument as to why leaving would be a good idea if such existed - which so far no one has been able to present.
     
  15. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,078

    Yes. But if you want to term it propaganda then committed Brexiteer's deploy it as well. I distinctly recall Boris recently stating his ambition for office: to 'achieve Brexit/ then presenting what the post Brexit future will be/ 'the conservative party will hold the center ground' i.e represent, main- stream and moderate opinion (ye old neoliberal classic).

    What would you term only presenting one half of a story and seeking to only find fault with a position you don't agree with?

    The identification that both conservative leaver and remain share a wider political identity i.e. classical liberal perspective. May be in part be true or at least does not seem unreasonable to assume from what they say.

    It would explain why both sides are using the same buzzwords or 'propaganda' if you prefer this term.

    The observation you make is true. How you seek to use that truth is more complicated than you suggest.

    Like the statement 'we all know what Brexit means and what we were voting for.'
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,718

    Eh, no, if you think Brexit ends in October or next year or the next 50 years, you're being naive.

    People will be talking about this politically for the rest of their lives, as a club to beat people with regardless of what side you're on, you will be an enemy to someone.

    This is the second chapter of toxicity frankly, after allowing the Tories to be in office, plenty of chapters of bigoted hatred, vile abuse, violence to go, so either one side capitulates and loses every argument they will ever have again, or we fight this for the rest of this countries existence.
     
  17. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,078

    edit. sorry.
     
  18. V F

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 13, 2003

    Posts: 15,472

    Location: UK

    You've got a crystal ball have you? You don't even know what'll happen by October let alone the next two years or even 50.
     
  19. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,718

    Yes i do, even if we leave in October, it's still going to be in the news for the rest of time, its still going to be discussed in pubs for the rest of time and people will moan about it every week. Not forgetting the official campaign to get back in the EU... which will begin about 3 seconds later.

    If we dont leave, it's the same thing, just more chance of violence.

    I will certainly NEVER allow this to be forgotten, ruffled under the proverbial rug of embarrassment when the obvious comes to fruition and the ones who sold the country lie through their teeth that they didn't know it would be like this.

    If you mean there might be a big ol asteroid or WW3 breaks out, then no, but then that's completely irrelevant. Tell me, do people still talk about Thatcher? The two world wars? What about Iraq and Afghanistan? The fact that those events still shape political faith today would suggest i'm right.

    There is a chance that people will just accrue some selective amnesia over this affair, but i imagine it's near zero.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  20. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,017

    No it doesn't. Calm down. You're seeing stuff that isn't there.

    They're using "committed" and "moderate" to denote the degree to which each is adhered to their preference in the referendum.

    No doubt the Brexiteer they have spoken to is presumably a "Leave-at-any-cost" ERG frothy, and the "Remainer" will be someone who's backed May's Deal.

    Anyhow. You'll post some "neutral" stuff from the Express no doubt, to counter well-known propagandists Bloomberg.