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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

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  1. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,575

    The picture and the sentence from my post that accompanied it wasn't meant seriously it was a play on the lack of objectivity that is going on.
     
  2. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,366

    I wet my pants when I saw the post. Classic Rroff, not laughed that much in a long time. I felt the need to expand on full propaganda mode.
     
  3. BowdonUK

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 17, 2016

    Posts: 2,840

    Well this is exactly as I predicted. That the main reason Boris is being chosen is to counter Corbyn. I noticed there was talk of a GE a few weeks ago, and with Boris not confirming the October 31st date during the debate I think we're nearly 100% sure a late GE will happen. The only 2 problems there are is 1. The Tory MP's that have come out as Remain will need to be de-selected unless they publically confirm they are for Brexit, and 2. The Brexit party. There needs to be a deal done or BP will end up splitting the Brexit vote.

    If a GE does take place then Labour need to take the Remain position. If they don't then they won't get in and their votes will end up splitting with the Lib Dem's.

    General Election alert: Boris Johnson planning early election as Tories demand Farage deal
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...ory-leadership-race-nigel-farage-brexit-party
     
  4. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,383

    Your post was interesting until I got to your source, the Express.
     
  5. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    If there's a solid hint of a GE (rumor mill churning in 1922 committee or what not) and loss of power for the likes of Hammond and Clark to do something about not destroying this country, i'd like to think they'd realise it was over and deal with it.

    The fact is that unfortunately for Boris he needs 2/3s of the house to agree a GE and i'm sure that after the 'totally accurate polling' between 2016 and 2017's GE, that they might not find that reason enough to jump in again.

    Though Corbyn will almost certainly jump at it like a rabid dog, i guess it will depend on the wider party and the Tory moderates.

    Theres a very real chance that a vote to GE will fail, the Tory party will literally split and a VONC will take the reins from them.
     
  6. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 2,673

    But we're not talking about everyone, we're talking about a group of people who would've been suspected of breaking the law, who then entered a room where an invite only event was taking place, who were behaving in an agitated and threatening manner, who ignored warning that they were in an unauthorized area, who ignored instructions to vacate the area, who proceeded to move around a room full of seated dignitaries, and appeared to be moving with purpose.
    And you would've had no way of knowing that they were not armed, if someone is suspected of breaking the law of the land, has entered an unauthorized area, refuses to obey instructions, and everything else do you really think they'd care much about the wrongs and rights of carrying a weapon? Hindsight is 20/20 but unfortunately hindsight is not something you have when the situation is unfolding.
    Big IF, like i said hindsight is 20/20 and I personally would much prefer to be debating what happened a few days ago than the murder of an MPs and civilians.
    I'm not trying to justify how the situation is being handled, I'm justifying how the situation happened.

    They can deal with it after the event anyway they like, i honestly couldn't give two hoots, what I'm taking exception to is how people are so willing to excuse the behavior of people who were presenting a clear and present danger to life and limb, who clearly didn't care about the law and clearly were not listening to directions.
     
  7. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,366

    Contrast it with this from yesterday on Politics Home Analysis: How today's Tory chaos could leave Boris Johnson without a majority as Prime Minister

    Short term issues.

     
  8. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    Clear and present danger? do you admit the terrorists have won with that sort of talk?
     
  9. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 2,673

    So you're saying people who would've been suspected of breaking the law, who then entered a room where an invite only event was taking place, who were behaving in an agitated and threatening manner, who were carrying bags, who ignored warning that they were in an unauthorized area, who ignored instructions to vacate the area, who proceeded to move around a room full of seated dignitaries, and appeared to be moving with purpose, are not a clear and present danger?
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    No as they don't fit any profile of what that would constitute in the wild. The fact that they were woman in dress with a rather clear message on their sash should not make everyone jump around in fear (looking from the video, it was mostly bemusement and annoyance), nobody was shouting Arabic phrases or calling people traitors.

    They would have had to pass detectors as well so the assumption would be no metal, though i guess guests could be forgiven for not remembering that.

    If a bunch of nicely dressed woman are now a clear and present danger, this society is truly afraid.

    (I know you could say that you should not assume where a danger could be and that's a fair aspect of assessment, it's also fair to assume that a bomb means it's well too late, a knife is still a threat in the situation that occurred and so was acid... so it's rather irrelevant what he did or didn't do.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  11. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,575

    Sorry but I don't agree with this at all - guests would have no idea if they'd come in through detectors or somehow found a way to bypass and things like ceramic knives or toxic liquids, etc. are a thing. Guests also would likely have little idea who they were and even know in the moment if they were from extinction rebellion, greenpeace or some other group that might be more or less peaceful in intent. More extreme protesters have engaged in subterfuge before to get to their goals.

    There is a half way measure - you don't need to leave yourself wide open to show you aren't afraid of terrorists.

    While you might not be able to assess the full range of threats there are some more likely than others and you can do the best you can with a situation - if she did have some kind of explosive device by tackling her he might have prevented her getting to somewhere she could do more damage, etc.

    She was somewhere she wasn't invited, moving with purpose and ignoring attempts to stop her you don't need to let terrorists win to assess that as a potentially dangerous situation.
     
  12. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    Ahh but if guests dont know about anything, then they would surely not know they were invited or not then?

    Regardless i dont know why i keep talking about this, i'm just going to stop, it's over with and the amusement of media theatre is gone.
     
  13. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,575

    Have you watched the video? pretty clear they'd know the protestors weren't invited.

    Or maybe where you are from it is normal for invited guests to tussle with security as a rite of passage for entry.
     
  14. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,366

    I think we have both done this to death. The investigation will determine what happened, the wider situation is a serious security breach with senior minsters present. They will be chewing through the details in detail that would boggle the mind.

    No one is excusing anyone's behavior. Protesters, guests, the police, all should not be subject to force if its not required. Duty of care. If people had been running about in terror and were as you suggest in fear of their lives different matter.

    If someone was seriously distressed or traumatized an arrested would almost certainly have been made, as if you do not do this the victim would not be entitled to criminal compensation for the injury sustained during what would clearly be a criminal offense (causing distress). The situation you are alleging occurred is associated with a range of traumatic long- term effects. Post traumatic stress etc.

    Police have a duty of care to the victims of crime. The are generally serious well trained professionals, there would have been a number of highly trained officers in the room given the presence of big political beasts. Experts at assessing the situation.

    No one was charged or arrested. Presumable as it was determined they posed no threat. Which I suspect would be of a concern to the M.P here. As it does suggest some disconnect in terms of his explanation, potentially. He clearly has some more explaining to do and that needs to be examined and determined fully and fairly. It is certainly not helpful that no crime was determined to have been committed by the protester.

    That she did nothing wrong (so to speak) a complicating factor.




    End with the existential horror that is Donald Rumsfeld

     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  15. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    Hustings is currently live.

    "Talent in the Tory party highest he's ever seen".

    **** sakes.

    Ah all the unicorns are regurgitating out of his big ol mouth.

    Oh my someone said the F word D:

    He's pretty much said nothing going by his body language and constant appeals to the audience, making it out that the host is being nasty... honestly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  16. GAC

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 11, 2004

    Posts: 3,780

    just caught borris and his view of re looking at heathrow expansion (borris island is making a come back no doubt) and also hs2 and within a min of that he mentioned cross rail 2 that needs to happen, so heathrow gets stopped and hs2 is paused or stopped and suddenly all that money goes on the island and cross rail 2 no doubt.

    meanwhile we will still be rattling about on pacers (they havent been replaced as of yet) or other 20+ year old refurbs with sod all electrification that was scrapped in favour of dual mode diesel and electric.

    if the above happens i cant wait to see what my local mp who is also the northern power house minister has to say, will be squeaky bum time indeed for him come the next election as it is.
     
  17. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 15,292

    Location: London

    :D

    Pretty good speech overall
     
  18. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,366

    These days if we can get through a speech without the candidate leaping of the stage and manhandling a member of the audience due to a perceived fear for their personal safety.
    We can call it a win for democracy and civil society ;)
     
  19. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 15,292

    Location: London

    Or indeed some looney mentalist protestor jumping on the stage...
     
  20. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,909

    He was already there.
     
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