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The Conservative Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Gigabit, Jun 10, 2017.

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  1. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 17,318

    Location: Kiel, Germany

  2. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,139

    The worst thing about it is that Soros actually had a hand in funding Odey's businesses. So what is it really... other than a dog whistle?

    Seems with the Tory party exploding open it's usually hidden wounds, this happened...

    https://www.businessinsider.sg/tory-campaigner-jade-smith-timed-tweets-timed-2019-10/

    https://order-order.com/2019/10/02/...ng-party-to-end-bullying-before-tragic-death/ (the only time i'll quote this site)
    How many men and women are in this position of lying to themselves for so long that the abuse they get from predators in, well lets be fair, any political organisation?

    When i think about any situation it might edge out into the public sphere (a particular Aberdeen South MP comes to mind) about their abusive behaviour wrt to other people in a sexual or inappropriate manner, it gets swept under the rug? The wider party "officially" said it would investigate it, but nothing ever happens, nobody speaks up because it would destroy their image, the press would hound them, the party would disown them for speaking out (regardless of the truth) so they end up saying nothing, so it keeps happening, normalising the behaviour for all involved.

    This ultimately spews out into the public sphere anyway as associations or general political groups feel it's "normal", i mean if what's normal for the highest offices it's clearly fine in society at any level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  3. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    Soros did fund a Remain group with an above board donation of £400,000. Both he and Odey are hedge fund managers. Soros did make a fortune on Black Wednesday. So technically nothing Mogg has said is incorrect.

    That said, Soros is effectively being used as a bogeyman by some fairly unpleasant right wing parties in Europe and by the far right in the US where it is effectively harking back to the old Jewish banker trope.

    So I guess it comes down to wether you think Mogg mentioned Soros because he supports Remain and is a hedge fund manager in counterpoint to Odey who supports Leave and is a hedge fund manager or you think Mogg was using Soros in terms of the vile Jewish Banker trope.

    Does Mogg have a history of making remarks that could be considered anti-Semitic?
     
  4. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,139

    That's not really the point i was making, even if someone hadn't had a history of making such statements, as soon as they spoke out against Israel or Israeli lobbies in the West for it's naughty behaviour, inevitably you have overwhelming level of agreement in certain quarters of the press/political persuasion who brandish that as anti-Semitic and a legitimate concern is brushed under the very large table of grievances. (No i highly doubt he has a history of making such comments, but it's irrelevant anyway) TL : DR - Basically the absolutely disproportionate response towards what is unlikely to actually be anti-Semitism.

    I'm simply asking why there's no such criticism for someone who just happens to be establishment right-wing? (I wouldn't really call a Labour Lord someone who can speak for the at-large media, but he's uniquely justified considering his own history is similar to Soros)

    Just seems like crass hypocrisy, considering who the Tory party are now courting for votes... I guess everything is up for sale in 2019 though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  5. RDM

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 20,211

    it has been picked up by the Independent, Jewish news and commented on by the Jewish chronicle (a cursory google shows). Lord Dubs has himself said that he may have rushed in to calling it an anti-Semitic remark so it will struggle to get traction.
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,139

    I don't really care if it got traction or not, it's not having the same effect it would had it been uttered by anyone else other than a right-wing establishment figure in government.

    It doesn't really matter, i'm just slinging mud because the shoe was on the other foot and it's typically ignored by the right-wing empires in the press.
     
  7. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    To be fair when the shoe is on the other foot it is pretty much ignored by their supporters too. Hypocrisy is on both sides, one just owns more papers.
     
  8. StriderX

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 22,139

    "Both sides" isn't a valid argument, it's a scuffed deflection. Indeed it merely enhances the problem here, that it's fine to grossly attack the opposite side in this instance, but it should merely be deflected when it happens inversely.

    The reality is that frankly FPTP has created vile political organisations, it needs derooting and a zero-tolerance approach to abuse needs to enforced in a ultra-transparent manner. Leveson 2 needs to occur and be acted upon aswell.
     
  9. RDM

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 20,211

    I am not a huge fan of "zero-tolerance" approaches to things like press regulation. Governments interfering with the press aren't normally a good thing.
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,139

    I never said anything about zero-tolerance in the media, that's up to an eventual committee to stew over, personally i'd like papers/websites to do full front page apologies after it lies to the public the next day (hopefully so that they don't even attempt it), not doing so meaning a huge fine. I find it to be a just response to the current situation that doesn't mean going full fash/commie. But as i said, it's not up to me, but something needs done.
     
  11. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 20,779

    Location: London

    And there it is - vultures are circling.
    Those sweet sweet Brexit dividends :(
     
  12. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 32,315

    Location: Co Durham

    Which when I suggested months or years ago on here that is what would happen to get a trade deal with the US I was told I was smoking crack and it was project fear and no way would we do that...
     
  13. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,559

    Location: Wales

    I think the stores comment is more that he profited of something that caused pain to the UK.


    No one gives a **** that hes Jewish, they care that he bet against the pound.


    Its nationalism not antisemitism.



    Also is any one really worrying they're going to get raped at a party political conference? My experience is that when they descended on Manchester last time there seemed to be an inordinate number of people on grindr looking for tops :eek:
     
  14. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,559

    Location: Wales


    Could this be a bargaining chip given the timing.


    Trying to pressure mps into backing th deal as a deal with the EU would lock a lot of this stuff up with the ni plans

    "Back the deal or its chlorinated chicken for dinner" kind of thing
     
  15. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,618

    It is one of the main reasons I voted to remain.

    Even with those enviromental safeguards the Uk had been ignoring them. I always saw the EU as a regulatory board trying to stop countries from being arseholes. So I am not surprised the Tories and most of the bitter people hate the EU.
     
  16. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,871

    Location: Vvardenfell


    No. And it's not even really about a trade deal with the US. It's about the far-right (economically) wing of the Tories wanting "small government". Translated into English: allowing private business to make money is more important than anything. Doesn't matter what protections need to be torn up, they all need to go. These same people know that actually announcing such a thing doesn't play as well here as it does in the US, so they brought in "Austerity" first. That was never about saving money as such, but about shrinking the state. Especially when said state was being used to help people who would never vote Tory, although that was just a bonus. Now the same people have found another reason to push the "small state": getting a US trade deal. It's not a case of these people being forced into a deal: they want one on these terms. Because if the deal is agreed, them no future government can go back to protecting the environment or the workforce.
     
  17. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,580

    Not unless you count sharing the AfD leader's speeches about how Jews are murderers, dining with the ultra-racist Traditional Britain Group who want to deport all non-whites and Jews regardless of place of birth, or indicating that he believes in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    So yes, Mogg is a massive anti-Semite.
     
  18. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,270

    Bit rich coming from the poster who was engaging in anti Semitic conspiracies himself in the Labour thread...

    Mogg is just calling out the current nonsense conspiracies about supposed hedge funds backing Boris for a hard Brexit etc..etc.. "omg disaster capitalists" etc..
     
  19. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,139

    It's not a conspiracy if it's happening.
     
  20. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,270

    What is happening exactly?

    Hedge funds having long and short positions in UK equities? That's nothing new... Hedge funds taking long or shortchanged positions in currencies... ditto.

    Rich people making party donations - not exactly new either.

    None of that is a conspiracy. Naive people with little exposure to finance might try and make up a conspiracy based on some of that though.
     
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