Poll: The death penalty, are you for or against?

[Freefaller]

Even if only 1 innocent person dies, it's unacceptable.

Tougher jail sentences, and no "easy" ride in prison is what's needed.

I also don't like the fact that it's effectively a state sanctioned murder.

I know it's a passionate subject and at times I've wanted to rip the limbs and knocked the life out of some of these disgusting people - but it's not the right thing to do. Punish them, yes, kill them, no.

 

[elmarko]

I wish the way we pay taxs was on an opt in basis, so i could opt out of paying for keeping prisoners.
Be interesting how many against would change there mind if it came at a higher financial cost to them as a tax payer.

Lol - (that is all).

 

[Hatter The Mad]

I wish the way we pay taxs was on an opt in basis, so i could opt out of paying for keeping prisoners.
Be interesting how many against would change there mind if it came at a higher financial cost to them as a tax payer.

The reason why society isn't and shouldn't be allowed to opt out is because most of society is fairly stupid and short-sighted. They go with knee-jerk reactions and confirm their biases by selectively reading or listening to only things they want to hear.

So while most of society, I guess, would opt out of funding for prisoners, crime rates would go up (as would welfare bills, policing bills, legal system bills, etc). But they won't see that.

 

[elmarko]

Even if only 1 innocent person dies, it's unacceptable.

Tougher jail sentences, and no "easy" ride in prison is what's needed.

Come on FF, you do know that tougher prisons increase the re-offender rates?.

Don't you think we should be copying societies which have excellent re-offender rates (like the Nordic regions) as opposed to nations which much higher ones? (like the USA).

 

[Freefaller]

Come on FF, you do know that tougher prisons increase the re-offender rates?.

Don't you think we should be copying societies which have excellent re-offender rates (like the Nordic regions) as opposed to nations which much higher ones? (like the USA).

Our prisons are jokes here - playstations, tvs and drug exchange etc....

In an ideal world it would be nice to see people actually realise they've done something wrong, repent and do their best to enhance society after rehabilitation. However, so many people are so care free and ignorant about their actions that it just serves no good.

Still, killing someone for a crime is not acceptable though.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Tougher jail sentences, and no "easy" ride in prison is what's needed.

Are you serious? I expected better (ie reading around the subject) from you!

Edit: Oh dear, it seems not...

 

[robj20]

The death penalty is more expensive than imprisoning someone for life...

Proof, and not proof of what americas system costs.
How is putting a bullet in someones head, or lethal injection more expensive than £50k a year imprisonment?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Proof, and not proof of what americas system costs.
How is putting a bullet in someones head, or lethal injection more expensive than £50k a year imprisonment?

Because if you were to do it sensibly (ie the American model) and provide all of the proper routes of appeal and study available to the prisoner, then it would cost.

If you just want to take someone out of a court room after sentencing and hang him, then of course it wouldn't. However, that would be barbaric and subject to a higher error rate.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Come on FF, you do know that tougher prisons increase the re-offender rates?.

Don't you think we should be copying societies which have excellent re-offender rates (like the Nordic regions) as opposed to nations which much higher ones? (like the USA).

What do the Nordic states do that we don't?

 

[Energizer Bunny]

I wish the way we pay taxs was on an opt in basis, so i could opt out of paying for keeping prisoners.
Be interesting how many against would change there mind if it came at a higher financial cost to them as a tax payer.

Everybody would opt out. That's what individuals generally do - look after themselves. So you'd have to execute all criminals or turn them loose. Prison funding would dry up immediately.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

What do the Nordic states do that we don't?

Low maximum sentences, vastly better prison conditions (space, access to resources). Fewer offences which carry a jail sentence. Better training and education programmes. Better mentoring. Ultimately, vastly greater funding per prisoner.

 

[Freefaller]

Are you serious? I expected better (ie reading around the subject) from you!

Edit: Oh dear, it seems not...

I'm on my phone so haven't read the whole thread. However that's my opinion yes.

I'm vehemently against the death sentence, what's wrong with that?

Clearly the softly softly approach to prison isn't working, so surely the next thing to try is to build more prisons, and either be tougher on the repeat criminals, or offer some support and rehab to 1st time offenders and those that actually just took the wrong path.

A murderer who has no remorse is unlikely to want to integrate back into society, or those constantly pushing drugs may not want to earn an honest living.

What do you suggest?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

I'm on my phone so haven't read the whole thread. However that's my opinion yes.

I'm vehemently against the death sentence, what's wrong with that?

Clearly the softly softly approach to prison isn't working, so surely the next thing to try is to build more prisons, and either be tougher on the repeat criminals, or offer some support and rehab to 1st time offenders and those that actually just took the wrong path.

A murderer who has no remorse is unlikely to want to integrate back into society, or those constantly pushing drugs may not want to earn an honest living.

What do you suggest?

Ok, you have some reading to do This topic has been done to death on this forums. The upshot: We don't do 'softly softly' in this country, despite what the Daily Mail says. Softly softly is what the Nords do, and it works. We have one of the highest reoffending rates in the world. We have one of (or the) highest prison populations per capita in Europe. We have the most jailable offences in Europe. We have some of the lowest funding per prisoner in Europe.

 

[gigeorge]

Im quite for gladiatorial battles where murderers get to fight to live.. Far more entertaining than 22 men running around after a ball?!

 

[Freefaller]

I will do.

Well we're agreed we have the highest re-offending rates. However we cannot take 1 state as gospel. Their cultures, and population cross section is vastly different to ours. There is no one solution fix all and we have to tailor it to work and fix it here. We do need more funding I agree. However the death sentence isn't the key here and should never be IMO.

The Nords have a vastly different group of people and type of culture/behaviour, and so they've tailored something to work for them - however we can't just copy them. I, like you, am fed up of the re-offending or the lackadaisical approach to law and order by the criminals here.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

I will do.

Well we're agreed we have the highest re-offending rates. However we cannot take 1 state as gospel. Their cultures, and population cross section is vastly different to ours.

I agree. It's the case worldwide, though - more investment in rehabilitation (which means, as you put it, 'softly softly' I 'm afraid) reduces reoffending rates. More jailable offences and absence of those rehabilitation resources (ie locking lots of people up together and letting them get on with it) causes the opposite, and in fact worsens criminality.

 

[semi-pro waster]

A point I meant to raise before when describing why I'm against capital punishment but forgot is that when playing with a persons life juries tend to err much more on the side of caution and have the habit of inputting their own "standard" of proof which means that while the accused might be found guilty if it were "only" life imprisonment they will be found not guilty where the punishment is execution. It's also a reason why a number of lawyers who are death penalty advocates private would never seek it publically - if anything it makes it more likely that criminals will be released than otherwise.

Majority of criminals never get re-rehabilitated, prisons are already full and I don't want to pay their weekly Dole allowance out of my own pocket.

That we have high recidivism rates isn't necessarily proof that criminals cannot be rehabilitated. The problem is that we just don't really try to rehabilitate them and so the destructive cycle of behaviour will continue. To do rehabilitation properly is not cheap but it is worth it in terms of overall cost and reduction of damage to society.

I find it disturbing that so many vote no. What would your thoughts be if someone killed a family member be?

I might very well want vengeance but that's an utterly terrible way to approach a justice system. You'd also have to consider that it may lead to vastly disparate sentencing - what happens if the family of one victim seeks clemency but the family of another victim demands execution? We've now got a judicial system that bases its actions on whether the family is of a forgiving bent or not.

The aim of a judicial system is (or should be) impartial and balanced dispensation of justice - it won't always succeed but it's even less likely to work correctly when you throw in emotional arguments.

What do the Nordic states do that we don't?

At it's most simple level they try to rehabilitate prisoners, give them skills to cope with the outside world once released and treat them as if they might just be human. It doesn't work in all cases but the recidivism rates are almost a mirror image of ours (i.e. Norway has around 20% reoffending from memory, we have around 80%).

 

[Ahleckz]

What do the Nordic states do that we don't?

They don't have an underclass of criminals who will continually breed further underlings. Until people realize that this underclass exists, and there is little (if anything) that we can do about it then crime will remain a problem in this country.

We can't copy another countries justice system because the people within the two countries are very different.

 

[RaohNS]

For it obviously

Its a double edged sword. The older generation are all for it pretty much and those 50 or over. Whereas the students are against it.

This is a product of the era. The old remember the Death penalty and recognise its merits, the young don't remember it, go off what they are told and informed and only ever cite the bad points. This in my experience is taught by young-middle aged liberal teachers.

On a more direct note:

Justice by its very nature is about vengeance.

Why do you see families/the public happy or angered by decisions?

For people like Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley, Kate and Jerry McCann (joking) i don't see the point of part of tax money being spent on them when it could go towards paying to keep a nurse in the job to help someone decent and hardworking.

I'd hazard a guess that most people on here who are in the "No" camp don't have a child of their own. If anything happened to my child (God forbid) you are damn right i'd not want to share the planet with someone so evil.

To the no camp its a very simple question: why have any sentences or jail time at all for any crime? The answer is because they have done something wrong... so if they have done the worst wrong imaginable why should the severity of the punishment not be the absolute?

 

[Hamish]

Exactly, the point of prison should be rehabilitation, not punishment.
If you lock someone up in an empty room for 5 years all you will get at the end is a de-skilled and dissollusioned re-offender who will end up costing society more, but the victims will get to feel nice and happy that they have revenge.

If you use prison as a chance to rehabilitate them, make them realise the error of their ways, give them a skill and a trade and treat them as a human, then when they are released they will be more likely to become a functioning, contributing member of society, have less chance of reoffending, and cost the tax payer less in the long run.