Soldato
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They need our business
Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)
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They need our business
The EU is not an undemocratic club; it's by far the most democratic supernational organisation on the planet. It's way more democratic that institutions such as NATO, the UN, the IMF, or the WTO. And by being part of the EU we have far greater democratic influence over the continent we're part of. Because being part of that continent is going to influence us regardless of whether we're in or out, being at the table negotiating with these other countries gives us greater control over our country.
Do you go and represent yourself on the world stage? No, you don't. You elect people to do it for you. As part of the EU, we get to directly elect representatives to go and do some of that negotiation and voting for us - alongside our nationally elected government. Outside of the EU we only have the proxy of our nationally elected government, we have no direct representatives. This is what I mean by represented by proxy.
Every British citizen could still do that though. Its a funny element of misinformation this: My cousin is studying in Spain with Americans and Canadians. According to remain this should be impossible. We can still allow our Universities and European Universities cater for each others talent.
I could have phrased that better. Yes, of course, some people can study in Europe without being part of the EU, but non-EU students face higher tuition fees in most EU countries and, unlike EU students, do not have the same access to support schemes designed to ensure access for all. This means that you can only study there if you have the up-front cash to do it (or, since we're mostly talking about 18 years, if you have rich parents who are willing to pay). Because we're part of the EU that isn't true for us. This is a huge benefit.
The same is true of the right to live and work. If you're non-EU you'll find it harder to get a job; you'll need to apply for, and pay for, a costly visa; you'll have less security because you won't qualify for benefits if you lose your job and may even be deported; you'll have less rights to bring your family over, and they'll also have to apply for visas; and you'll now that at any time the country you're in might arbitrarily change the rules you're allowed to stay under. All of this isn't true for us living and working in the EU (and a few bonus countries) because we're members of the EU and we enjoy the enormous benefits of free movement that it brings.
And, as a result, we have a much stronger economy and a healthier exchequer while there is no sign of any decrease in employment or wages for UK workers. Seems like win-win-win to me.
It's extremely rash to assume that we will be able to renegotiate re-entry into the Single Market as soon as we leave. And, if we do, it's almost certain that free movement will be a required part of that deal so the immigration, that's going to stay. The contributions to the EU budget? They'll stay. The big change will be that we no longer have any control over the EU rules we're bound by.
Maybe, a long time in the future, but for most - probably all - of the rest of the century, Europe is going to be a bigger trading partner than any of these countries.
About a third as much as we need theirs.
It's a difficult position but we are talking about the 5th biggest economy in the world vs the 19th.
Maybe because what politicians say before a vote, doesn't always get said after the vote. I have to say that the risk of the EU bullying us really is the most pathetic reason for staying in the EU.
Soldato
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I don't think I've ever seen something so out of context in my entire existence.
.Both campaigns are truly deceitful, the majority of the people will be swayed by this misinformation and the final decision to remain or leave will be based on lies.
You know, as time goes on, this debate seems more and more like the Scottish one. On the Remain side, you have the sober judgement of every reputable economic commentator saying it would be bad for the economy, and on the Leave side, you have hopeless optimism in the belief that you can get deals which everyone on the side you'd negotiate with says you can't. In the Scottish referendum it was the absurd notion that Scotland could keep the pound, in the EU referendum it's the absurd notion that the UK will get the same access to the Single Market without free movement.
Who needs one more? 27 (30 incl EEA) countries that stand to lose 1 trading partner or a country that stands to lose 27 (30 incl EEA) partners?
You seem to think that the whole world will bend over for UK.
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But you are happy to believe everything the politicians on the Leave side are saying now and that they will do all those things?
EU trade makes up about 44% of UK exports, UK trade to the EU makes up about 16% of non-UK EU exports. Comparing the absolute figures is daft because the EU is much bigger than the UK and whereas the EU is the UK's biggest export partner, the UK is not the biggest export partner of a single EU country (from here):
The idea we will have the upper hand is nonsense. We need to export to the EU much more than they need to export to us.
No-one has said a single thing about "bullying". The idea that the EU behaving in an entirely rational, reasonable and consistent way is "bullying" is utter tosh.
Perhaps the EU citizens now have children that have grown up and are looking for jobs?
The borders have been open to EU citizens for many years now, is it not feasible that the offspring are looking for work?
I don't trust politicans on either side. What I do trust though is the energy, talent and drive of the population of the UK to make our economy a success once we're freed from the mire of the EU.
Soldato
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EU trade makes up about 44% of UK exports, UK trade to the EU makes up about 16% of non-UK EU exports. Comparing the absolute figures is daft because the EU is much bigger than the UK and whereas the EU is the UK's biggest export partner, the UK is not the biggest export partner of a single EU country (from here):
The idea we will have the upper hand is nonsense. We need to export to the EU much more than they need to export to us.
The UK is the 5th largest economy and you think no one will want to do deals with us, don't be so deluded.
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I'm sure they will want to do deal with us, but perhaps not at the terms that brexit camp are suggesting.
Soldato
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Where does he say no one wants to deal with the UK?
He just said we are in greater need to export to them than they are to us, which is a fair comment.
What terms are Vote Leave suggesting? Understandably, since they aren't proposing an alternative government, the Leave campaign have steered clear of making predictions on what's going to happen in future.
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