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The future UK, whats the vision?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Mercenary Keyboard Warrior, May 28, 2019.

  1. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,705

    Location: Inverkip

    An independent Scotland, a reunified Ireland and the UK reduced to England and Wales.
     
  2. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

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    Location: Hertfordshire

    First I would bin the "Great" from Great Britain, gives people delusions of grandeur.
     
  3. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,639

    If just applying to say property then you have a few options, you demand it is paid and seek to repossess the property if they don't, thus freeing up an under-utilised resource in many cases (but also potentially just kicking elderly people out of prime central London in other cases), they potentially have the option to pay the bill themselves with equity release (and potentially get butt ****ed by some finance company in the process)... or if you want to take the gentler option you let them run up a debt that gets paid off when they die and pass on the property or indeed if they chose to sell up later and move into a nursing home - you likely still have the same sort of issue (just as we have with funding care for the elderly) with entitled potential beneficiaries of properties being up in arms at the government getting a bit chunk of their parent's assets to pay for their care... if this asset tax is allowed to be deferred and ends up taking a big wad of cash out of a future home sale.
     
  4. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    Posts: 62,640

    The reality is most of these ideas will just kick people out of their homes that have worked hard all their life to make something for themselves.
     
  5. dowie

    Caporegime

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    Posts: 39,639

    Well no, there are two ideas there - one involves that unless they take action themselves via equity release or brining in a lodger) and the other is the alternative to defer payment that allows them to stay. In the latter case it might well encourage people to downsize quicker if they choose to but it doesn't kick them out.

    But yes the point was that it potentially does involve people getting kicked out of their homes!
     
  6. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    If the goal is to make the country a better place neither accomplishes anything. None the less the message it will send is don't bother doing well for yourself as you'll just get shafted down the road.
     
  7. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    Location: Ipswich / Bodham

    Equity release is just a mortgage with rolled up interest. Or did you find one with an option to get butt ****ed, compared to options that you've just literally made up which describe a scenario where the potential beneficiaries are... butt****ed.

    What's really interesting is that this thread was about vision and future, and just about everyone has focussed in on very narrow, specific issues.

    Zero vision. Just policies with confrontational outcomes but with no grand end goal that might allow different sides to compromise and get behind for different reasons.
     
  8. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    No one is interested in this - they just want the bits of any idea that benefits them and screw anyone else. Unless there is an attempt by everyone to find balance to the unfairness (life isn't fair) society will never be in a relatively good and balanced place.
     
  9. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 11,410

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    But is possible. Or, to be more correct, it is more possible than the attempt that we have today, where there is no vision and no togetherness at all.

    Some political parties do it, faith does it, families do it. We fail as a nation to do so, and nobody really tries anymore other than some occasional lip service. We have united the majority of the nation behind visions in living memory - defeat the Nazis is probably the most recent - but it is possible, as demonstrated by other nations where there is more purpose and common goal.
     
  10. dowie

    Caporegime

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    Posts: 39,639

    I didn't suggest it!

    I suspect you'd have more than just one dodgy company looking to get in on this growing market if the opportunity presented itself. I can't say I'm in the market for this sort of product but I'd have suspected that the interest rates might be a little bit higher than the typical mortgage too even for the non-rip off ones.

    As for visions... well ok then, yes lets have free homes for everyone... I'd like one in Regent's Park please...
     
  11. Rroff

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    Oh I agree it is more possible than the attempt we have today.
     
  12. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    You're conflating vision with outcomes, deliberately I imagine.

    A vision would be to have free homes for everyone. If your vision would be to have free homes for everyone in Regent's Park... then you're going to need a lot of very tall skyscrapers and no park, You're missing the point.
     
  13. dowie

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    I think the outcomes are rather important here too - its not much good having a vision of (free? not clear in the OP actually, presumably if needed) homes for everyone if that means everyone ends up in a tiny flat. Outcomes were specified in the OP (bedsit for a single etc..), he wants to end BTL for the majority... well people will still want to move around, young people move to London etc.. some areas will be more popular than others... you therefore have an allocation problem - how does that get managed?
     
  14. The_Abyss

    Capodecina

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    The point is that you start with the vision, and deliver the outcomes to realise it.

    The point about wanting to end BTL for the majority is not really valid, as that's a definitive position that may not achieve the outcome to help achieve the vision. And, perhaps, herein lies a problem. Even if people share the vision, not everyone will agree with how it is achieved.
     
  15. dowie

    Caporegime

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    It just seems like you've got a rather specific definition of "vision" that you're now expecting everyone in this thread to adhere to even though seemingly the thread starter has outlined things that don't fit what you'd like to confine the discussion to.

    I mean we could all post some visions, regardless of how feasible they are, lets call them "dreams" even... but it doesn't really provide for much discussion if they're unable to be questioned (inc the implications of attempting to implement them) or grounded in some way.
     
  16. Rroff

    Man of Honour

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    I'm not sure ending BTL is even necessarily a good thing - but having enough of an alternative that people are less at the mercy of if so it is more exposed to normal market forces would be a good thing overall.
     
  17. The_Abyss

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    Of course they're able to be questioned. The point I'm making is that few are capable of actually having the bigger thinking to create them and bring others along.

    I don't think that the OP really defined or limited things at all - he asked for open views of what could be better, and posted some of this own.

    Think bigger - what's the vision. Not, what's the vision of something different to somebody else's idea - what's your vision? It might be harder to argue or debate against, but that's what the OP has asked for.
     
  18. dowie

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    I didn't claim he did.

    He's also put forth some ideas, you seem to take issue with them being questioned yet this is supposed to be a forum for discussion too... if you want to post some visions then no one is stopping you but trying to police how others post or respond to posts, or to try and avoid any visions being questioned is just silly IMO... anyway, I don't think carrying on this meta discussion is particularly helpful, you post your stuff, I'll post mine thanks :)
     
  19. The_Abyss

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    I questioned whether or not they were actually visions. I then challenged you to come up with some of your own rather than just be combative and argumentative. You failed and, as normal as you stated, just posted you own stuff, just argued against whatever someone else is posting. :)

    You're always keen to argue against something, but in this case I'm trying to expand the debate to what I believe the OP was really trying to convey. You're arguing against that, but in doing so not contributing to the OP's original question. Once again, what are your own ideas, vision and values? Do you have any that you're willing to articulate and stand up for, or are you just policing? All I've done is encourage more wider, bigger thinking. So far you've just argued against the discussion and crafted a straw man or too.

    Are you capable of answering the OP's questions and expressing your views? Or are you limited to battling the views of others?
     
  20. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

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    What balance is there in the current system exactly?

    /pointless rant mode

    This country has existed in semi plutocratic state for decades, with a delusion otherwise when it was irresolvable, finally culminating in the complete breakdown of civility we see before us.

    Well deserved, but whatever it’s only a mild justice and is already stale. This discontent will grow into open hostility before long where visions are meaningless.

    The reality is there is no possibility of vision in this country because the rot is frankly irreparable. Either the populace wises up and stops being easily led by the very people they should actually despise or a violent dictatorship takes over to end the nonsense. Anti education, xenophobia and sycophancy doesn’t just disappear.

    This is the end result of the regressive right wing ideology, and it was voted for every single time. The only vision is whether the authoritarians win or the liberals do.

    It’s time to stop being naive.

    /