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The future UK, whats the vision?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Mercenary Keyboard Warrior, May 28, 2019.

  1. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,640

    Unless they are keeping it under the bed or as inactive assets then that money would likely be doing something hence earning them interest.
     
  2. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,640

    The US system generally has horrible outcomes for anyone not doing OK as well as being part of a very different approach to taxes - it also forces a lot of the things you complained about in terms of rent controls - it forces poorer people in parts of the US into higher density housing and more living out of a box room, etc. and can be pretty miserable for people who temporarily fall on hard times.

    Council tax in this country could do with a lot of optimising though - but also most of the alternatives are just bad for instance where I just moved from the houses on my side of the street paid £1995 in council tax while the other side £1632 - which was probably around 4% of income (assuming average single income) for people on my side and 8-10% for those on the other side. Most of the proposals by Labour, etc. would after a few years have seen some form of tax at around 12.5% for people on my side while the other side would have dropped to slightly under 2%.
     
  3. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,639

    The point is that it at least makes allowances and is less bad... my POV is that I’m anti this idea but if we were to go with taxing assets then at least go for a model with some exceptions to try and help say over 65s etc... unless them aim was to target them in the first place. Would you not want that?
     
  4. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,640

    I'm not a fan of the situation either side of the fence when it comes to pensioners - the only really fair solution is a very long term and somewhat costly system of phased change - gradually reshaping society in a more gentle fashion over many years of letting the current situation die out of its own accord while preventing new entrants to the problem.
     
  5. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,639

    Doing community service as a means of earning “credit” could be interesting.


    I guess that, while a different area to the crime angle it still plays on the idea of having a debt to society. I wouldn’t want this to go too far as lots of the time people can’t help their circumstances... I mean taken to the extreme and extended to healthcare say someone gets lumbered with an illness and say runs up a big NHS bill etc.. so with regards to things like things like disability allowances etc... I think the state just has to suck it up. But I guess, specifically related to say unemployment benefits, you could perhaps have a system whereby everyone gets 6 month of payments regardless and beyond that (and indeed ref higher payments) previous contributions come into play. If insufficient previous contributions then beyond the 6 months the payments could form a debt/student loan type situation. So yeah someone on benefits when they could work starts racking up a debt... one issue here I guess is that you could discourage long term unemployed from getting back into work - they’ll need to be taxed more to start paying off this debt and there are already issues w.r.t. marginal effects- people getting benefits reduced when returning to work etc...

    But I can see why people might be a bit put out at someone getting plenty from the state over years with no need for any repayment if their future circumstances improve significantly. If they were to win the lottery tomorrow or inherit a lump sum from a relative then perhaps some JSA or discounted/waive red council tax could be relayed etc...
     
  6. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,554

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    This is sounding more like a lifetime tax account, rather than an annual one (with some exceptions where you can pool some years) which in theory sounds like quite an equitable approach.
    If your unable to pay your share whilst alive then the last reckoning should be to try to "balance the books" on your death from your estate.
    Sounds like it would sort of fix, people who had highly variable incomes, those who got lucky say winning a lottery as you say who may have been heavily subsidised for some years
    I agree the serious illness thing sounds like a penalty. Of course it needn't be market rate "charged" in those circumstances, and maybe even something waived on death, but should the person have a prolonged period of excessively expensive treatment, maybe this could partly become repayable if they went on to earn excessive amounts.
     
  7. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 8,554

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    I know I am going to be unpopular here.
    My main issue with council tax is that its really paying for a lot of local services that are nothing to do with the value of the house, which itself is not really any more than a semi direct link to ability to pay/afford.
    So we go back to the last attempt to fix this issue.... the poll tax.
    A tax I still believe was inherently far fairer than council tax. Maybe if the poll tax had been banded, so it was partly linked to income/wealth, then it would have been less hated....
     
  8. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,640

    Personally I think the current council tax system is generally pretty fair it just needs a little more tweaking - for instance where I just moved from for my side of the road it felt about "right" while the other side of the road it was a little too high. Some might have issue with it not being equally "fair" but broadly it balanced out.
     
  9. krooton

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 9, 2004

    Posts: 24,829

    Location: Leafy outskirts of London

    It's a bit messed up in London though due to inflated housing prices.

    A £600k 1-bed flat in Zone 2 could command similar council tax to a £600k 3-bed house in Zone 6, even though the latter could house 3 times as many occupants.

    Even more ridiculous is the fact that some new build estates do not become fully council managed. Our estate does not have the council looking after the roads, enforcing any traffic related things, or maintaining public areas. Basically we are paying a non-discounted council tax bill to just cover rubbish collection, and then have additional service fees to a private company to look after public areas (and zero enforcement of any traffic gubbins).
     
  10. kedge

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 5, 2010

    Posts: 3,675

    I'd like to see a government worth voting for.
     
  11. singularity

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 2, 2007

    Posts: 1,007

     
  12. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 5,810

    I have read some of the thread but not the entire thread.

    A few ideas I might support.

    In no particluar order and with a very mixed selection topics.
    Reduction in business rates for small businesses to encourage bricks and mortar businesses on the high street.
    A massive reduction in the cost of tax and alcohol in pubs and a large hike in the cost of alcohol from all other sources, to encourage people to socialise together and provide more service industry jobs.
    An energy policy predicated on minimum cost to the consumer to support the onshoring of manufacturing in the UK and reduce fuel poverty.
    A complete and equal devolution for the UK, using the standard regions, Scotland is the 5th most populous region, Wales 9th and Northern Ireland the 12th. I think Yorkshire deserves the same local democracy as Scotland or any other region. Devolution should be uniform. An opportunity for devolving spending decisions and generating some diversity in Government policy.
    After proper devolution the requirement for the largest 3 parties in any constituency at the previous election to hold an open primary for the next election.
    Transition the House of Lords to a mixed house partial PR from previous GE, partial post holders, mostly self selecting college of "worthies" on single fixed terms. Former MP's barred for 10 years following leaving Commons.
    Increase in defence spending, limit overseas aid to OECD average + X%.

    I have others but maybe need to think more.
     
  13. SPG

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 28, 2010

    Posts: 5,339

    Build new parliament in middle of country
    Change voting system
    Raise tax for business operating London
    Remove nuclear weapons 100%
    Disband housing associations bring back to council control.
    Build more council stock
    Lifetime rents for the private sector
    Allow E-scooters
    All new road public transport to be electric

    Bring back to stat owned
    Water
    Power
    Rail
    Disband road tax, put it on fuel

    Raise income tax (stop stealth taxation)

    By law all internet purchase are to terminate in the UK and taxed accordingly.
    Any company with more than 200 employees has to be registered in the UK and provide recipts for everysale upon request (Unlimited fines)
     
  14. Donnie Fisher

    Gangster

    Joined: Jun 22, 2018

    Posts: 294

    Location: Vegas baby !

    I wish we could get to a place where all of society feels that "nobody owes you a living" and that society as a whole works towards a better place. I do think there is a place for state welfare, but there is also a place for earning that where you can (community service type work / volunteering / whatever ) ... even if that isn't necessarily full time employment.

    As for criminality and its punishment ... personally I think that incarceration could be better. I dont think that prisoners should have TV's in cells etc. If they want the news, they should read newpapers ... if they cant read, then teach them. Make use of the resource to pay back society ... such as recycling sorting etc etc. Sitting in a cell doing sweet FA is a waste of useful ability.

    I think there should be a bigger push to electric methods of transport ... the likes of escooters, ebikes etc, and a raising of the speed limits on same. Upping it to 20mph for example would likely make me change from the car much more often.

    All new roads built to have cycle lanes.
    Old railways to be resurfaced to cycleroute / walking paths.

    Commercial premises is town centres that have been unoccupied for 6 months or longer to have their commercial rates quartered for 12 months then remain at half for another 12 months. This to promote local businesses development and regeneration.

    Far more promotion of local micro energy generation.
     
  15. eddiemcgarrigle

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 3,705

    Location: Inverkip

    Scotland is not a region of a country, it is a country. Devolution has allowed us to have better public services, a protected NHS, free education, free prescription charges, banning fracking, etc. The problem we run into are idiot politicians accusing the Scottish Government of not doing this, that or the other when this, that and the other are powers reserved to Westminster.
     
  16. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,585

    I found this to be an interesting read regarding taxation.

    ‘Socialism for the rich’: the evils of bad economics
    https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2019/jun/06/socialism-for-the-rich-the-evils-of-bad-economics

     
  17. Orionaut

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 2, 2012

    Posts: 6,523

    Not unpopular with me.

    The "Poll Tax" was just fine by me.

    Tapering on the introduction however might have been a good idea since, no matter how well off one might be, a sharp rise in taxes is always going to hurt.

    It was the large extended families with multiple working adults (Particularly those living in council accommodation) that were hardest hit. I recall one local example where the annual tax bill for one household went from £300 to £1500 in a single year. This was actually perfectly fair since the household had five working adults in it but this was still a significant hit for all concerned.

    Had the changes been scaled in over several years to give people time to get used to the changes there might have been rather less hostility.

    As it was, My impression at the time was that most people were OK with the "Poll Tax", it was only really the vociferous professional takers who moaned the most. Thatcher should have stuck her ground!
     
  18. phil675

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 15, 2005

    Posts: 4,364

    Location: UK

    End forced redistribution of wealth from productive to unproductive people by getting rid of benefits and the NHS, replace with private solutions.

    Housing and healthcare should not be human rights as they force somebody else to work for you.
     
  19. String

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 6, 2013

    Posts: 11,585

    @phil675 I'm sure someone will bite. :p
     
  20. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,640

    I wouldn't have said it was really fair - the impact of a household on council services generally doesn't scale linearly with headcount - generally going from say 2 working adults to 5 won't result in 2.5x the rubbish being generated as there will be a lot of overlap, often 1-2 members of the household will cover a lot of things for themselves and 1 or more other members, etc. when it comes to the use of services and so on.

    It was tempting.