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The Grand Tour

Discussion in 'Motors' started by LiE, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 7,861

    It would probably take me 20 years of driving it to actually see any savings with that price difference vs similar quality cars. It's just not worth the price, even at 77k. Especially when you put depreciation in the mix.

    Also when a Tesla goes wrong out of warranty it won't be cheap to fix. No one except Tesla make parts for it, they are in short supply and most garages wouldn't know where to start on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  2. Jonnycoupe

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 11,078

    Location: N.Warks

    8 year warranty makes that concern irrelevant for the initial buyers. Nor does the concept of saving money. EV here is offering incredible performance not cost savings.
     
  3. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 7,861

    But money is always a factor.

    An 8 year warranty is great. But try selling a mega expensive EV when that warranty is nearing it's end :p
     
  4. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 2,741

    You can say the same things about anything with a 3L+ petrol engine these days, drops like a stone in depreciation and no one wants to buy them 2nd hand. Tesla depreciation isn't actually that bad on most of the range, especially if it is auto pilot capable.

    Either way hardly anyone actually cares about total cost of ownership, just road tax, MPG'z and status symbol. It's silly but its true and Tesla ticks all three.
     
  5. Jonnycoupe

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 11,078

    Location: N.Warks

    It’s not a concern any different to today’s large engine’d cars.
     
  6. StuBob

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 26, 2016

    Posts: 202

    Location: Scotland

    So Jeremy drives 4km back to the start where he proceeds to lose his boat down the very first hill he climbed, right... Rather lazy that scene and supports the filler point made above. Never made much of the Canada opportunity and that was a poor Celeb Face-off section after last weeks.
     
  7. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 7,861

    Well, it was Paris Hilton. Not exactly the most interesting personality :p
     
  8. The_Abyss

    Sgarrista

    Joined: May 15, 2007

    Posts: 8,929

    Location: Ipswich

    Enjoyed the episode - three decent ones in a row for me. I ignore the celebrity part - genuinely not interested in that most weeks, and certainly not this week.

    The Tesla is interesting. Bonkers car - they're investing a huge amount in creating a demand for a market that they hope to capitalise on in the future.
     
  9. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 15,002

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Who was looking at her personality?
     
  10. Finglonga

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 20, 2008

    Posts: 1,528

    Location: Stafford

    That is why it is so expensive as you are paying for 8 years peace of mind. The older it gets the harder to sell I would think as it will be expensive to repair. Plus as JC said a crash could cause a huge short in the battery and that would be catastrophic for the passengers and anyone near.
     
  11. b0rn2sk8

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2003

    Posts: 2,741

    I find it really odd that people keep talking about the perceived fire risk of EV's when in an (petrol) ICE car there is actually a tank of highly flammable liquid which in the right conditions can explode. No one is freaking out about LPG conversions which is just like the above but stored under high pressure. No one is making any noises about hydrogen either which mostly contain a large lithium ion battery and a big tank of flammable gas. Those sorts of points are just self confessed petrol heads tend to say when they are trying to think of something to bash EV's.

    Why would it be catastrophic for anyone near? They don't explode.

    The packaging on the battery pack makes a huge difference at mitigating fire likewise batteries burn really slowly compared to something like petrol which is pretty much instant. To the point it can be used as an explosive if you really wanted to.

    So many EV's have been written off in very spectacular style (side effect of them being fast) already and there have been no reports of people being trapped in burning cars. The very nature of the way they are constructed also makes them much safer in a front on collision due to the huge crumple zones instead of the engine being a liability. The battery actually helps keep the passenger section of the car intact in a collision from all directions because it is a structural piece in the floor of the car.

    Don't get me wrong EV's have some rather big shortcomings, repair costs being one of them (accident or otherwise) but reliability of the drive train is looking to be better than a conventional car. Affordable range is another one but lets not open that can of worms today.
     
  12. Diddums

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 24, 2012

    Posts: 14,422

    Location: London

    Paris Hilton makes me want to tear my eyeballs out.
     
  13. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 7,861

    Battery fires are more dangerous because they go up extremely quickly and violently and you can't put them out once they start. It only needs one of the 1000s of cells to go up and they will all burn, they will even burn underwater so a regular fire engine will not be able to deal with it.

    Petrol needs a spark to set it off, will burn up quickly and it's easy to put out. But batteries only need to be exposed to moisture in the air, be compressed or overheat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  14. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 27,940

    Location: Canada

    Another good episode. The Tesla section was funny and the Raptor section was, well a Raptor section.

    The only (well one of a few) issue with the Raptor is it only comes in a short box option, so it’s too short for what we need, or else we may well have bought one. The GF loves them so would be quite happy to have picked one up. :p That said, it’s like any “proper” 4x4, you’ll never use it to its full potential because you’ll be afraid of smashing it, unless of course you’re borrowing it for a TV review.

    Which leads to the next point, the Shelby F150 is in a way a more exciting vehicle. Strap a rather large supercharger to the Coyote and you get 750hp, true V8 (rather than twin turbo V6) and a few more off road bits than the standard F150. Better on the road than the Raptor, where it’ll be 99% of the time, and the awesome supercharger whine.:D

    Oh, and his reversing is terrible, should have just used the trailer backup assist which would have solved his issues. Less fun Tv though!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  15. Begbie

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2004

    Posts: 22,668

    Location: .....

    This is why you buy old 4x4s :D

    I used to constantly thrash my 4x4.
     
  16. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 71,580

    Location: Bedford


    I'm afraid you are incorrect on most of your points.

    Petrol tanks will catch fire and explode faster than any battery pack.

    Should Li-Ion packs found in vast majority of EV's catch fire, they are more than easily dowsed with water, as there is very little actual lithium metal in any of the cells, it is lithium metal that water cannot put out.

    Also CO2 extinguishers and foam extinguishers will very easily dowse a Li-Ion battery fire, all fire engines carry plenty of those, and they will still pour plenty of water onto the crash as taking heat energy away from the pack, and it's surroundings is the simplest way of limiting thermal runaway.

    Manufacturers of battery packs work very hard to minimise the risks associated with rapid disassembly, by separating cell modules within the pack, and cells within modules, with plenty of fire resistant packaging material, and also various electrical cut outs and fail safes that remove any current from the system extremely fast in case of an incident.

    So thermal runaway is a lower risk than a petrol car springing a leak and exploding.

    A NHTSA safety study says that fires occur in less than .3% of crashes (2.9 incidents per 1000 crashes), the chance of a li-ion pack thermal runaway incident is roughly 1 in 200,000.

    I know you will immediately think of the Rimac crash on The Grand Tour, and the way that burnt out, but that car was a pre-production concept, and it was oil cooling lines to the wheel mounted motor units rupturing that initiated the fire, and burnt out the vehicle, the actual battery pack was intact when investigated after the fire. Look at the underside of the car in post crash photos, it is virtually intact, had the battery pack caught fire or exploded there would be very little left.

    Finally scientists and researchers have now made successful Li-Ion batteries with water as the electrolyte between the plates within the battery, and not the combustible gels that are in them currently. Once these new cells come in to full production it will virtually eliminate any risk of thermal runaway incidents in Li-Ion packs.
     
  17. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 27,940

    Location: Canada

    Yep, I’m still half contemplating getting an old wrangler for that job. Unfortunately the oldest Raptors are still ~£20k to buy, so not cheap enough to trash just yet.
     
  18. Nasher

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 7,861

    Apparently Hammond barely got out before it went up in flames very quickly, then it took 5 days for the batteries to finish burning. They transported it away somewhere and it was still burning.
     
  19. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 71,580

    Location: Bedford


    I'd love to see a quote from anywhere that confirms what you say, because everything I have read and heard from people who were there, has said nothing abut the batteries catching fire at all.

    As I said a couple of the oil lines that go to the motors in the wheels ruptured when he crashed and rolled, spraying oil over the hot motors which set the oil alight, and the burning oil set the car alight.

    Hammond got out of the car under his own power a good few minutes before the car burst into flames actually, and as you can see from all the photos online the fire was out within moments of the fire crews arriving on the scene.

    Also I can tell you without any worry of correction LI-Ion batteries do not burn for days on end, they burn for a very short time as there is not that much flammable material in one.

    I know this as it is my job to set fire to Li-Ion battery modules and packs for various EV manufacturers, and to deliberately impact and impale battery modules and packs to see what happens, and to check all the safeguards work as designed.

    And finally yet again I point you to the post crash photos all over the internet, of the burnt out car upside down, the battery pack is very clearly visible and very clearly completely intact, and not burnt out and not exploded, so again where is the evidence that the battery pack caught fire at all ?
     
  20. crinkleshoes

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 9, 2009

    Posts: 10,721

    Location: 720S, M4 or SR3

    8 year warranty is somewhat irrelevant when they don't appear to take into account reductions in range (ie, battery efficiency).

    I know people who bought Teslas only to be unable to use them 2-3 years later because the usable range no longer covered their commute.

    The first option that may actually compensate for this is the new roadster with it's 1000km range... now we're starting to get into the realms where the standard charge range and range after efficiency loss might be usable on a daily basis.