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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 585

    Hi All

    As an outsider I've been watching the apparent disintegration of the labour party and I'm starting to worry about it's survival. I had hoped that, after a little wilderness wandering it would return and once again make a bid for the centre ground.

    Except that what we appear to have is Jeremy Corbyn. Loved by many members (especially news ones) he appears to have led a surge to the left. A surge that I believe makes them unelectable any time soon.

    The Party Labour Party (aka, MPs) appear to be at violent odds to the membership, on issues as important as defense. Heck, the shadow defense minister was on the radio this week and didn't even know what the labour policy is. I can't remember an interview int he last 2 months with a labour figure that actually outlined policy - and wasn't repudiated in hours.

    Do people think it's doomed? Should I give up hope for a centerist party?
     
  2. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 6,097

    Location: La France

    Voting for Jeremy was the best £3 I ever spent.

    Endless comedy and he's made Labour unelectable.

    So much win.
     
  3. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    I don't know whether I'd rather have him making an unelectable stand on the left where his party belongs, or joining the mess in the middle with the other idiots and their lack of differentiation.
     
  4. Cyanide

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 5, 2006

    Posts: 3,957

    Location: Nottingham

    At first I was fairly impressed by some of the things Corbyn was saying but the more I hear about him the more I think he's unelectable. Which is a shame because I don't think I could tolerate another 5 years of Tory rule either.

    It's a shame that so many MPs are acting the way they are towards him though. He has the backing from the majority of the party they're supposed to represent so who are they to go against the will of their members? Doing so makes them no better than the 'elitist Tories' they're supposed to be opposing.
     
  5. Lytton

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 25, 2014

    Posts: 563

    The party needs to admit that it can't unify such a diversity of views and should split. At least after the new labour transition Blair was able to surround himself with those closest to his ideology and cement a sort of coherent cake and eat it cabinet. The trots and committed socialists were mostly on the back benches. At present we've got a muddled shadow cabinet as well as committee leads whose views are basically the polar opposite of one another. This degree of variation is surely impossible to reconcile. The party can't agree on small policy details let alone decide whether it wants to maintain market forces indefinitely or build a socialist utopia. Either way, Corbyn is still a far better human being than any slimy politician at present, even if I disagree with much he says. Split the party, it's the last thing that most of them will want to do but at present the party is unable to position itself firmly anywhere on the political spectrum.
     
  6. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 8,284

    The Labour voters want a return to a centre-left party rather than a Blairite centre-right party. There is a struggle within the party for this balance. Their MPs were mainly elected during the right wing years and see no problem. What the Labour supporters, rather than the Blairite NuLabour have seen are massive cuts to their standard of living and services but cuts in taxes for the wealthy. That is why huge numbers of their traditional supporters left and voted for protest Parties like the UKIP even though they are even more right wing than the already far right Tories. It is also why the SNP did so well. They positioned themselves to the left of the Blairites. I do not think you will get agreement on a lot of policy until the power struggle is over.
     
  7. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    Labour lost a huge number of votes to UKIP. Whether that's genuine votes for UKIP or protest votes, it's a problem.
     
  8. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 3,952

    It's a right-wing narrative pushed by the media. Can't afford to buy a house? That's because of all the Bulgamanians coming over here to live and the scroungers living in taxpayer-funded mansions. Your benefits have been cut? The money's all going to scroungers and Bulgamanians gaming the system, none left for you. The NHS is in crisis due to lack of funding? Blame the Bulgamanians coming here to exploit it. Under no circumstances can the Tories ever be blamed for their blocking of new house building and their savage cuts to every public service so that the money flows into the pockets of the rich. And if someone stands up for the people, that man is unelectable because the media say he is.
     
  9. macmodder

    Gangster

    Joined: Jan 19, 2011

    Posts: 365

    I think Labour's main problem is not Corbyn electability, but it's collective electability. Infighting is mking them less electable. Corbyn is to the left of the current centre ground, but the centre ground is not an immoveable point in an absolute political spectrum – its the highest point in the bell curve of arguments won at a specific point in time. A charasmatic leader, a strong political campaign, or a significant economic or social event can shift the centre ground very quickly, and Corbyn (if his party allows him) has over 4 years to do so.

    I think Corbyn could win an election, but that relies on him being able to unite his party. I think most likely scenario is there will be a coup 9-12 months before the next GE and Labour won't have the time to rebuild, and will lose again. Which is an unpleasant thought.
     
  10. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 6,097

    Location: La France

    Unfortunately for Corbyn, he's as charismatic as a bed sore and his front bench inspires as much confidence as a parachute from Pound Land.
     
  11. subbytna

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 22, 2008

    Posts: 8,539

    Location: Belfast

    Tories and Labour are one and the same, all backed by big multinationals who don't have the people interests at heart. you couldn't fit a fag paper between the two now.
     
  12. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 585

    I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that the fact that labour voters voted UKIP is a right wing media lie, aka, narrative?

    Or is it that this will be a problem in the medium term the right wing narrative?

    Evidence to support it might be a medium term problem is the SNP results in Scotland. Voters are demonstrably sticky (or is that icky?) - once they've voted for someone... anyone... they're more likely to vote for them in the future. See Scotland - having voted for (effectively SNP) in the referendum, they then voted for them in droves in the general election.

    It's not an argument as a biased narrative. Explain why it's wrong. What's wrong with the argument that UKIP are a problem for Labour? Isn't the SNP just as big a problem?

    Given that these labour voters went with a more right wing party... what are the odds of pulling them back as a centrist party? Better or worse odds as a far left party?
     
  13. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 585

    Corbyn has a massive advantage over any challenger in terms of party support. Run the election today and he'd probably still win. What happens if he's returned?
     
  14. jpod

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 16, 2011

    Posts: 1,624

    Location: Cheshire

    All UK parties are utter rubbish. Labour appear to have ruined the country with their experiment on immigration which no one voted for.

     
  15. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 61,159

    He is as slimy as the rest of them don't be fooled by him trying to champion good causes or better ideals.

    Problem is he has got where he has by playing the rebel but that won't get him any further and he'd lose much of the support that got him where he has got if he starts playing the statesman - but he really needs to change that message to solidify the party i.e. "I'd take a responsible approach" rather than "I'd never press the nuclear button".
     
  16. Vonhelmet

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 28, 2005

    Posts: 48,116

    Location: On the hoods

    I think the point is that labour lost votes to ukip because the right wing media effectively scared them into it. It was a bit more civilised than the "If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour" of yesteryear, but some of it wasn't far off.
     
  17. El Capitano

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 2,577

    I simply don't see how Corbyn can possibly unite the Labour Party. He's the most rebellious MP the Labour Party have and yet, now he's leader, there's a whole bunch of people demanding the rest of the MPs fall in line. The hypocrisy is staggering and credibility destroying.
     
  18. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 585

    Ahhh, I see. But this presumes not only that voters pay attention to what politicians say (brave) but that they believe what they hear. Worse, given the tiny amount of publicity that UKIP got, I'm amazed anyone noticed them.

    Heck, if they were scared into voting UKIP in May, what's going to happen now, after the Paris attacks? If just being told that migrants were terrible caused a 10% swing, what is ~120 dead in Paris going to do? The reports of tens of thousands of migrants coming into Europe every day going to do?

    That is, I don't believe that this can be brushed under the carpet with "right wing narrative". It's a *problem*.
     
  19. El Capitano

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 2,577

    The notion that UKIP got only a "tiny" amount of publicity is laughable.
     
  20. q974739

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 4, 2009

    Posts: 585

    Except when they were being laughed at? From the media sources I was paying attention to at the time (BBC, guardian, telegraph, the TV debates) they were for the most part ignored or castigated. Their message was ignored. I certainly didn't see much of them. (Sample size, 1, anecdotal)

    Except for the point about AIDS cases, for which everyone piled on to attack them. Does that count as publicity?