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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

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  1. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,341

    It's about party loyalty and voting where your heart lies. I quite happily voted for Mr Blair (when he was still leader) and for Mr Brown thereafter. I even voted for Michael Foot. My voting record goes back to the beginning of the 1970s and I was born and lived in the North of England for most of my life. Only a fool would vote for the Tories if you were brought up in that environment. Perhaps you are what's often called 'the floating voter'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  2. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,341

    His own agenda isn't and never has been Europe centric. He's been a Euro-sceptic ever since I can remember and the 'conversion on the road to Damascus' act should fool no one.
     
  3. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,881

    Location: Midlands

    I've always voted Blue as they protected the Police (whom my family were).
    However, if a GE comes around any time soon, I will not vote for Conservatives. I reckon I would vote for Lib Dems in the current climate unless Labour come out with some convincing manifesto.
     
  4. GAC

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 11, 2004

    Posts: 3,780

    i vote for the best local mp as lets be honest whoever ends up in parliament really dont give two hoots about us the voters for the most part. iv voted for labour and conservatives unfortunately thats the only options here lib dems haven't really done anything for the past decade here as far as i can tell be it general or local elections no sort of presence other than a name you'v never heard of on the ballot now and again.

    and yes im in the north also the local labour councillor who ran last time and will run next time i wouldnt vote for if you paid me as she's a complete waste of space and her record at the local council is shocking especially when it comes to being held accountable, she was involved in a homes renovation scheme thats now swallowed at least £5 million now and not one persons been held accountable for it and she refuses to answer any sort of questions about it as theres a police investigation ongoing which is some 3 years old now?! but yet labour still expect us to vote for her lol
     
  5. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 19,382

    Well they haven't done that for 8-9 years now, so who did you vote for in 2015 and 2017?

    In the last labour manifesto they pledged to add 10,000 more front line police.
     
  6. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    Just don't ask the shadow home secretary how much it will cost... :D
     
  7. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 21,863

    How much has Brexit costed the BoE and the treasury so far?
     
  8. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    No idea.

    I thought it was a fairly obvious tongue in cheek reference to the complete mess of costing it that Diane Abbott did?
     
  9. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,565

    Labour's 2017 manifesto was fully costed. It's the Tories who were pulling numbers from the air. But, our press is owned by right wingers so guess what the narrative was.
     
  10. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,549

    There was a big problem with their costing though - they often used the assumption that if X amount was being lost in one area you could make back X amount by changing the rules applying to that area when the reality is when you change the rules people adjust how they do things and the amount you make back will often fall short in some cases a long way short. Same with things like taxes - if you change taxes that doesn't necessarily mean you will return any higher/lower amount as people will adjust their outgoings, find ways to avoid paying, etc. etc.

    Funny thing was it wasn't just she messed up the numbers - the reality was they planned to make up some of that by adjustments/savings elsewhere and they got caught out as they hadn't expected to have to try and cover that.
     
  11. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 19,382

    So their manifesto was fully costed, but they should have taken in to account the great british public's penchance for tax avoidance?
     
  12. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 6,085

    Tax avoidance is sensible financial planning, most of my tax avoidance pays for childcare or my old age. But nonetheless they still used £1,500 of my income tax and national insurance contributions towards paying the interest on the national debt. Which given how low interest rates are for Gilts is a staggering amount.
     
  13. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,549

    Very superficial way to look at it. It isn't just about tax avoidance - there is a lot of naivety towards the fact that when you change the rules people don't just still continue doing things the old way they adjust to the rules when and where they can - it is an old fallacy that is frustrating to see.
     
  14. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,776

    Of course the Tories get no flack for theirs not being costed, nor the Lib Dems, nor the Greens, nor the SNP, nor UKIP, nor Plaid. Hmm
     
  15. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 19,382

    The Tories get no flack for throwing it all out the window the moment they got in to power either.
     
  16. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,421

    Location: Plymouth

    Labour hoisted themselves by their own petard in the last election. By making the statement that your plans are fully costed, you open them up to scrutiny in a much more forensic way that if you don't.

    The idea of fully costed manifestos is one I support, but if you are doing it, you've got to get your numbers right.
     
  17. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,549

    Gotta be honest I don't really look at the Tory one in any detail I don't really have any expectations - Tories going to Tory, Lib Dems is so open ended it is impossible to really nail it down though you can appraise the general approach. The rest can pretty much claim whatever they like as no one is going to take them seriously in that respect unless there was a realistic looking chance they'd get anywhere near power.

    EDIT: There is some merit in the general approach eulogised by Labour but like many before and I suspect many after they've fallen into that fallacy of not taking into account cause and effect - poor example but it is like saying - last month 150 people drove off without paying for petrol so we'll install CCTV and be able to fine 150 people next month to make up for it but once you install CCTV some will stop doing it (which might be a win in some respects) others will find ways to disguise themselves so you can't see who it was, etc. etc. and the actual number you can fine is way less - terrible analogy but it is a hard one to explain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  18. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,585

    Or some of those 150 start to pay for their petrol instead of stealing it. So less petrol stolen and more paid for petrol resulting in a higher income, less wastage and more resources. Tax is not a fine.
     
  19. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 64,549

    As I said it is a terrible analogy as I'm trying to describe the concept which covers a wide range of things not just criminal or morally dubious behaviour. This is not just about tax that is one of many areas of the manifesto.
     
  20. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,211

    It was a joke. Diane Abbott did a terrible interview where she completely messed up the maths for the extra 10,000 police officers. £300,000 then £80m instead of the £300m it should have been. She then got ill and stopped doing interviews. She got better after the election.

    My comment had absolutely nothing to do with costed manifestos but Diane Abbott’s terrible maths and interview skills.
     
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