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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Im not after changing your perspective on Corbyn. If you cant see why people want someone like Corbyn then I cant help you.

    He is a different person to what most people that dont like him say. Ill not take argument from someone who is insistent that he is antisemitic or a misogynist or racist or even a Czech double agent. I mean come on are you saying that you are one of those as well?

    Ill be honest I do get ****** off by his stance on brexit but I also get that he doesnt want to offend those that did vote to leave (offend is too small a point but anyway). I mean. If he talked like the other committed brexiters or even Dolph does sometimes about the EU he would lose my support in an instance.

    As I said when I read the headline for the Corbyn article that states "Corbyn restates Labour policy of backing brexit" I got a bit annoyed and thought if that is the story and that was that I wouldnt support him anymore as it made it sound like he was doing a press conferense and stating Labour policy is to push forward with brexit and there would be no second vote under his leadership. If he had done that then he would be ousted I have no doubt. But it wasnt it was a headline designed to get the backs of people like you up.

    While if there was a leadership contest now I might not vote for him. I also might not be able to vote for any of the others unless they are to the left, have a descent rep and want a second ref (and I dont mean anyone like Abbott). I would take back Ed in a heart beat. Infact he was what made me become a member finally.

    My worry about losing Corbyn would be to lose Labour a good few million votes and that could be the difference between Labour and the same old evil Tories and I feel that is the hope of people like Dolph who jump on every negative story about Corbyn despite the stupidity of some of them.

    I would however always vote Labour from now on after the remorse I feel over not voting for Browns Labour but voting Libdem in 2010 instead, despite there being no way on earth either party would have taken my constituency at that time.
     
  2. Arthur Hucksake

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 14, 2010

    Posts: 2,928

    Location: Nottingham

    There isn't much comfort in the fact they are all liars.
     
  3. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    Oh I can quite well see why some people want someone like (they think) is Corbyn - I've even touched on many aspects of that myself as being needed for this country if you've read my posts - I don't however agree that Corbyn will deliver what people want and that he is using them as a vehicle to his own ends by giving the impression his interests align with what they want to see without ever actually committing to that and it is quite obvious to those who are prepared to look deeper that where he wants to go is a far more radical interpretation than what most people who want what you are talking about actually support.

    You should know by now where my position is - that you are trying to group me with those positions is telling as it would be far easier for you to deflect any validity in what I say that way.

    I can see why you would vote for Labour as per under Ed - I didn't personally like Ed but that was less to do with his policies and more I found him a bit creepy as a person. JC I'm certain won't deliver the kind of Labour government you want to see (atleast as per face value your post I've quoted bits from - if you secretly desire something far more radical to the left then he probably would try to).
     
  4. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Thats the point Im not grouping you with those people. I used it as a reference point to the differing kinds of person he is seen as.

    You are missing the point. He is the leader of the party I support and I agree with his stated policies on the way forward for this country.

    None of the other candidates at the time, maybe Burnham for a while were saying what I wanted to hear, especially after Ed. They all seemed to be lurching to the right.

    You seem to imply or at least think I want some sort of unreachable socialist utopia. I just want a leader that isnt frightned to admit to being of the left and acting accordingly.

    I dont want some leader that thinks the only way to be elected is to lurch to the right to get votes or worse, wants to lurch right because thats where they want to head.

    I dont understand why you say "JC I'm certain won't deliver the kind of Labour government you want to see" I want to see a Labour government!

    I cant help you if you think Corbyn has an evil plan to hoodwink Labour supporters by saying all the things he is well know for supporting through his political life and turning into some sort of communist dictator.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    But what kind of Labour government? or is it any Labour government at any cost?
     
  6. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Read my edit.

    Actually you say "at any cost". Ive already said I would always vote Labour now so yes even if a slightly right of center leader was elected I would vote for that Labour over any other party except maybe the Greens. But I wouldnt put my backing by voting for them in a leadership contest, well unless it was Abbott as the left wing candidate. I would even vote Blair in that instance.
     
  7. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 36,485

    Fair play to JC, the EU have repeatedly said that they’d be happy to not only re-tweak the controversial backstop but actually completely renegotiate the divorce deal.

    Seems like a great idea to increase the risk of no deal while pushing for a general election as the resulting deal, given the above, will obviously be radically different. Labour MPs therefore have a clear reason to vote down May's deal, hopefully win a general election and then vote for the completely different deal JC will deliver.
     
  8. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    Yet people [like you] seem blind to all the things he is well known for throughout his politician career, which include a demonstrated poor judgement, lack of pragmatism and an admiration of regimes and people who've decidedly dubious histories and latch onto the bits you want to believe in as if the rest has no implications.
     
  9. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    This was going so well. Sorry Im out its just going round and round.
     
  10. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    So you are disputing those points?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  11. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 10,776

    Location: Cambridge

    You can't possibly be confused about labour party policy.
     
  12. DarkHorizon472

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 1,925

    The difference now is he has won two bitterly fought leadership campaigns and forced the government into a hung parliament from a 20% lead. He did this by beating the well organised and funded new labour political machine that won three elections. This did not happen by accident and was the complete opposite of how May was coronated party leader. If you look at the shadow cabinet over half are women which for me is a positive change.

    Given when the current government has now taken the country Labour or a party not of the increasingly far right is needed as the first step to healing the country.
     
  13. No1newts

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 24, 2009

    Posts: 18,683

    Location: North East

    Looks like it's going wrong for Corbyn with his internal supporters looking to oust him over Brexit.

    I like the man's ideas (in the main) but I just don't like him. There's something about him I just don't trust and I almost feel he wants Brexit for a Lenin-esque idea of destroying people's opportunities so the left becomes the only/most viable option. Though combining the current xenophobic climate what he is pushing is more likely to result in a far right victory and not what he hopes.

    His ideas wedded with someone with someone else, not sure I even know who, would appeal a lot more.
     
  14. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 19,895

    That is depressing. Having that certainty that you would always vote for a particular political party?
     
  15. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    Oust him is a bit strong. If you are talking about his supporters they actually want him to go for a second ref. Not get rid of him.

    It is the same hateful lot that have jumped on every press story that are just using this story to try to oust him again.
    This is what most of his supporters have always said though. If it wasnt for him saying that sort of stuff no one would have been brave enough to own up to wanting those types of policies.

    Ed Miliband was jumped on for just wanting to move away from the right of center and his policies were nothing compared to Corbyn. Infact he once said about those that were working against him that they thought it couldnt get any worse than him, meaning his left leaning policies that he had to water down because of the likes of progress (the center right Labour group).
     
  16. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    I did say or the Greens. Id only vote Green if the Labour leader was to far off the left.

    What is depressing to me is anyone actually after knowing what the Tories are about vote for them.

    Im not a floating voter that can change my view or mind on how much tax I might potentially pay.

    I want good public services and that is not going to happen under any Tory government and from now on I will vote either Labour or the Greens as not voting is a wasted vote and at least it allows me to put my support against those I dont vote for.

    Ill be honest and say I despise people that say they can vote for either Labour or the Tories as their whole point of being is contradictory.

    However I also applaud those that used to vote Tory but now after seeing what they are really like are against them.
     
  17. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    Not quite sure how that changes anything plus a good bit is down to Momentum and some other similar minded individuals/entities that back Corbyn - and some of what has gone on with them to promote theirs ends is quite dubious at best.

    This is part of the problem IMO people are voting too much based on short term measures - wanting good public services is all well and good but needs to also come with a good and workable approach to balancing the health of the country as a whole or in the long run it won't be sustainable to maintain a good level of public services.

    Which plays into another point I was going to make - if you break down any of Jeremy Corbyn's speeches there is a whole lot of talk about these issues to appeal to people downtrodden by Tory party policies and a lot about reversing or blocking many measures put into play by the Tories which have had an impact on people such as tax credit cuts, etc. but those measures weren't put into place purely due to Tory ideology alone and simply reversing them often isn't sustainable without also dealing with the reasons why they were floated in the first place - something along with any other detail on real solutions that is completely missing from his speeches. Obviously there is a limit how far you can go into something like that in a speech and a certain amount comes back to the Labour manifesto but it should be something people are thinking about in more depth rather than simply swung by the fact there is some talk about addressing these problems - which ultimately is just cheap talk but people are easily pulled in by it because it is what they want to hear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  18. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 1,455

    The Tory approach of cut and slash is what is short term and is their ideology. These cuts would have come even without the need for "austerity". Public services are being run down on purpose. The country is not a business nor are its finances run like a credit card.
     
  19. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 58,986

    Which is exactly the kind of thing I'm warning about. But don't write it all off as purely Tory ideology - there are real problems there that need to be solved - in the case of the Tories they've often employed the kind of tactics of a software developer who removes a whole feature rather than spend time trying to fix a bug in it especially when it comes to anything that involves the lower classes.
     
  20. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 45,221

    Location: Plymouth