1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,803

    Well they haven't done that for 8-9 years now, so who did you vote for in 2015 and 2017?

    In the last labour manifesto they pledged to add 10,000 more front line police.
     
  2. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,048

    Just don't ask the shadow home secretary how much it will cost... :D
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,688

    How much has Brexit costed the BoE and the treasury so far?
     
  4. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,048

    No idea.

    I thought it was a fairly obvious tongue in cheek reference to the complete mess of costing it that Diane Abbott did?
     
  5. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    Labour's 2017 manifesto was fully costed. It's the Tories who were pulling numbers from the air. But, our press is owned by right wingers so guess what the narrative was.
     
  6. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,140

    There was a big problem with their costing though - they often used the assumption that if X amount was being lost in one area you could make back X amount by changing the rules applying to that area when the reality is when you change the rules people adjust how they do things and the amount you make back will often fall short in some cases a long way short. Same with things like taxes - if you change taxes that doesn't necessarily mean you will return any higher/lower amount as people will adjust their outgoings, find ways to avoid paying, etc. etc.

    Funny thing was it wasn't just she messed up the numbers - the reality was they planned to make up some of that by adjustments/savings elsewhere and they got caught out as they hadn't expected to have to try and cover that.
     
  7. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,803

    So their manifesto was fully costed, but they should have taken in to account the great british public's penchance for tax avoidance?
     
  8. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: May 13, 2003

    Posts: 5,748

    Tax avoidance is sensible financial planning, most of my tax avoidance pays for childcare or my old age. But nonetheless they still used £1,500 of my income tax and national insurance contributions towards paying the interest on the national debt. Which given how low interest rates are for Gilts is a staggering amount.
     
  9. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,140

    Very superficial way to look at it. It isn't just about tax avoidance - there is a lot of naivety towards the fact that when you change the rules people don't just still continue doing things the old way they adjust to the rules when and where they can - it is an old fallacy that is frustrating to see.
     
  10. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,767

    Of course the Tories get no flack for theirs not being costed, nor the Lib Dems, nor the Greens, nor the SNP, nor UKIP, nor Plaid. Hmm
     
  11. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 17,803

    The Tories get no flack for throwing it all out the window the moment they got in to power either.
     
  12. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,536

    Location: Plymouth

    Labour hoisted themselves by their own petard in the last election. By making the statement that your plans are fully costed, you open them up to scrutiny in a much more forensic way that if you don't.

    The idea of fully costed manifestos is one I support, but if you are doing it, you've got to get your numbers right.
     
  13. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,140

    Gotta be honest I don't really look at the Tory one in any detail I don't really have any expectations - Tories going to Tory, Lib Dems is so open ended it is impossible to really nail it down though you can appraise the general approach. The rest can pretty much claim whatever they like as no one is going to take them seriously in that respect unless there was a realistic looking chance they'd get anywhere near power.

    EDIT: There is some merit in the general approach eulogised by Labour but like many before and I suspect many after they've fallen into that fallacy of not taking into account cause and effect - poor example but it is like saying - last month 150 people drove off without paying for petrol so we'll install CCTV and be able to fine 150 people next month to make up for it but once you install CCTV some will stop doing it (which might be a win in some respects) others will find ways to disguise themselves so you can't see who it was, etc. etc. and the actual number you can fine is way less - terrible analogy but it is a hard one to explain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  14. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,409

    Or some of those 150 start to pay for their petrol instead of stealing it. So less petrol stolen and more paid for petrol resulting in a higher income, less wastage and more resources. Tax is not a fine.
     
  15. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,140

    As I said it is a terrible analogy as I'm trying to describe the concept which covers a wide range of things not just criminal or morally dubious behaviour. This is not just about tax that is one of many areas of the manifesto.
     
  16. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,048

    It was a joke. Diane Abbott did a terrible interview where she completely messed up the maths for the extra 10,000 police officers. £300,000 then £80m instead of the £300m it should have been. She then got ill and stopped doing interviews. She got better after the election.

    My comment had absolutely nothing to do with costed manifestos but Diane Abbott’s terrible maths and interview skills.
     
  17. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    Bilking, like tax avoidance/evasion is on the rise.
     
  18. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,767

    I do agree it was a poor interview. She did state it was due to poor health.

    Irrespective of that - and I promise I'm not trying to whatabout myself out of it - there are much, much bigger problems than that interview, that's the reality. And the fact the Tories keep bringing this interview up is just a form of distraction.
     
  19. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,326

    There are few bigger problems than the prospect that Dianne Abbot could at some point (if the UK electorate loses its collective sanity) be installed as the Home Secretary. I wouldn't trust her to be secretary of the local W.I.
     
  20. RedvGreen

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 2, 2009

    Posts: 3,505

    Location: Midlands

    In all honesty, I believe their manifesto intimated that they would continue with Police/Law/Order support, but they did not deliver on it at all. Then the big downward spiral occurred and the Police ended up in the gutter.