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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,113

    Actually I think he said he would aways vote Labour.
     
  2. Gigabit

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 9, 2012

    Posts: 11,776

    This is the problem with the “People’s Vote” campaign, it is fronted by this lot. A lot of people voted Leave to spite exactly this lot of people.

    If Corbyn ever did support a second referendum - basically zero - he’s best staying well away from that campaign.
     
  3. chrcoluk

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 27, 2015

    Posts: 3,714

    I dont know about older people been more wise, they have memories of the late 1970s which I respect was not a pleasant time, and because of that period, they are extremely paranoid about giving anyone remotely left wing a chance. It doesnt mean they are right, because before those few years left wing governments have had multiple successful periods in government.

    My mother is completely clueless on anything financial, she hates labour simply because she lost her job because of unions when she was younger, my dad, is not quite so dim, but his understanding of economics is not great. You dont move forward in economics by been passive. Both my parents also have led a life which detaches them for a different type of person who has been ignored by governments for decades. As a result they cannot understand the sort of problems that do exist in this country, and I expect this is the same for millions of voters.

    We have a generational divide where the majority of older people havent a clue of the housing problems and poverty that exists in this county, they live in an entirely different world in their heads. Again it doesnt mean they more wise, its just that their life experience is different, the world for people in their 20s is very different today than it was in the 1960s.

    Yes my dad still thinks corbyn is a russian spy.

    Where I think corbyn has clearly failed is he has failed to reeducate the electorate on what the priorities for the government should be, in parliament he has avoided childish behaviour that repeatedly comes from may, all his questions are serious, and often sourced from normal citizens writing to him with their problems. However the typical british citizen doesnt hear anything from him, no leaflets, no adverts, no visiting places, if he cannot persuade people another path is better he wont win their votes, that is where I acknowledge he has been subpar.

    The fix for labour isnt to put a conservative as its leader aka blair, its to convince the electorate that their path is the right one.

    I am really baffled by the responses on here that all labour need to do is put someone like my own mp (liz kendall) as leader and they are a good opposition, once that happens they wont be an opposition at all, they will be a tory clone party.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  4. Scania

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 25, 2004

    Posts: 23,321

    Location: On the road....

    Perhaps they need to reconsider those same principles if they can’t get power without betraying them?

    It’s either that or effectively just be a party of protest with no real prospect of power.


    The issue is they need a credible leader,Corbyn isn’t - as his choice of front bench shows - never mind his baggage of the past - it’s as simple as that, we’re it not for Milibands rule changes Corbyn would have never got near the leadership and you wouldn’t have had last years confidence votes, resignations etc and ultimately election loss.

    Blair for his many faults was credible and the electorate saw him as alternative and fresh compared to a hugely split Tory party and the polls and subsequent election proved it by a landslide.

    Corbyn isn’t offering anything new, if anything he’s trying to resell the past and despite an even deeper division in the Tory party Corbyn barely levels with them in the polls and couldn't defeat them at the last election.

    Until he’s ousted (which with Momentum pulling the party strings is unlikely) I’m afraid Labour are going to get nowhere electorally and as a country we don’t get a strong opposition.
     
  5. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,341

    Great PM. If you try to rule by ideology it never works. Pragmatism is the only way to govern.
     
  6. darkgen

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 8, 2005

    Posts: 2,392

    Location: London, UK

    Blair took a lot of people with him in '97 , myself included, because he was a centrist. Pragmatism may stifle creativity but most people subscribe to logical and practical politics.
     
  7. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,113

    Im not sure how old your dad is is but Im in my fifities and have a completely different view. No disrespect to him but we are not all like that. I remember the brown outs and bin strikes and all other inconvenent happenings. But what I do remember more is Thatcher. Miners strikes, poll tax, Tory sleaze, police brutality, the selling off of the countries assets and many of the other injustices that went on during those times.

    I grew up in a poor multi cultural area of south London so many of my friends were what we call minorities now. I remember all the racism, the skin heads/bother boys, the punks, THE RACISM. No things were not better back then.
    No disrespect Scania but that is just your personal opinion. Corbyn tried to include some of the new Labour bunch by inviting them into the front bench but they had their knickers in a twist and started to disrupt it because one of their gang didnt get to be leader and just acted like spoilt brats. That was the biggest betrayal by Blairites that have happen to Labour supporters during Corbyns first few months because they were still sulking from not getting David Miliband.

    I still believe if it wasnt for brexit Ed Miliband, who had some of the same old Blarites that are causing trouble for Corbyn now disrupting him would have won in 2015 and we would never have had brexit. So dont blame Corbyn blame the Tories.

    If people cant see what the Tories are doing but at the same time complain about Corbyn then they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

    The Tories yet again are dismantling the services that working class (and everyone else) use and need. For anyone to vote Tory as a protest against Corbyn are as stupid as those that voted to leave in protest against the government (lack of housing, schools, dentists, doctors and other things that are the fault of government) when we have such a nasty party in charge.

    You say he isnt offering anything new while at the same time the Tories are just taking us back to before 1997 when Labour came in and started to improve things. Those same things that Corbyn is now offering to fix again.
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,113

    You so misunderstand Blair it is unreal.
    Thats all well and good but he also had many left of politics people voting for Labour who started to leave Labour and thats why Labour lost millions of votes every election.

    So yeah great that Blair got some centrist to vote Labour but at the same time making those that had voted Labour for years to take a look and stop voting. He would have got in without all the right of center politics he started to introduce as he got more involved with the upper classes/rich. So good for you that you were able to vote for the winning side, but bad for the country in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  9. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,904

    I can't see Ed winning that election - he didn't really go down well with the wider voting population with some seeing him as having stabbed his brother in the back and others just not clicking with him personality wise and that wasn't helped by some of his antics (poorly thought out PR) which didn't go down well with or without the presses help :s
     
  10. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,113

    Because of all the negative press, brexit and back stabbing from inside Labour. How could he have stabbed his brother in the back? That is ridiculous I cant believe you said it with a straight face. Its as bad as the negative Corbyn stuff like the bowing and no tie stuff. It might not be your opinion but it is just stupid. I just cant believe people say such childish things.
     
  11. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 6,918

    Location: La France

    Nah, it was the Ed Stone and his inability to eat a bacon sarnie like a normal human that did for Millionaireband The Younger.
     
  12. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,904

    I said that is what people thought - I didn't say whether I believed or didn't believe it. It was quite commonly banded around in the circles I frequent that people thought he had and regardless of whether that is stupid or not it was a big hurdle to him being elected because it wasn't uncommonly thought.
     
  13. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,113

    So they voted Tory instead? Im sorry but people didnt vote to get the Tories out because it was perceived Ed stabbed his brother in the back? What sort of idiots to you frequent with.
     
  14. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,513

    Location: Cambridge

    This is absolutely fascinating.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46900154

    • London state school secures 41 Oxbridge offers
    • Nearly all of those who received offers are from ethnic minority backgrounds
    • Two thirds will be the first in their family to attend university.
    • Half of them are on free school meals.
    How is it possible that some children are sent to school so hungry that they can't learn, yet others in a similar position out perform pupils at expensive public schools?

    I've looked for something which makes this school an anomaly e.g. ambitious children travelling in from well outside the catchments area, but I cannot find anything significant that sets this school apart from the rest.

    https://www.schoolguide.co.uk/schools/brampton-manor-academy-london
     
  15. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 63,904

    Wow - I associate with all kinds of people branding them indiscriminately as idiots is bang out of line.

    EDIT: Quite frankly I don't know precisely how they voted - for every person I know who has a political home there are another 2-3 who don't have firm allegiances.
     
  16. Terminal_Boy

    Soldato

    Joined: Apr 13, 2013

    Posts: 6,918

    Location: La France

    A combination of good teachers, supportive parents and kids willing to learn would be my guess.
     
  17. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,714

    What "Lot" would that be?

    As to people voting "Leave" to spite "this lot of people", I can think no better reason to disregard the "Leave" vote and to disenfranchise Brexiteers en masse - they are morons.
     
  18. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,341

    And you're so blinkered by left wing Corbynista style politics you can't see that it's a complete turn off for the electorate. Blair was successful because he represented the centre of politics which is where the vast majority of voters in this country feel comfortable.

    I breathed a sigh of relief when May won the confidence vote last night along with I suspect the majority of the countries other voters. If Labour were positioned now where Blair positioned them they would be a country mile ahead in the polls. Wake up and smell the coffee for goodness sake.
     
  19. Scania

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 25, 2004

    Posts: 23,321

    Location: On the road....

    Pretty much this.

    A “chaotic” and certainly hugely divided party is preferable by the results of consistent polling to Labour, if that doesn’t make Labour supporters wake up and ask themselves why then they frankly should just accept they are going to be shouting from the sidelines for a long time to come.
     
  20. darkgen

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Mar 8, 2005

    Posts: 2,392

    Location: London, UK

    I'm not too sure who or where that vitriol was directed at. I voted for Blair in '97 because the Tories had decided to implode with scandal after scandal and in fighting and yet here was man who dared to broaden Labour and drag elements of its core to the centre of politics. The populace is centrist, regardless of what those at the fringes think.

    Why are individuals so determined to shout people to the extremes?