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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,418

    Erm I was an adult in the 80's? All disabled were refered to as spastic out of ignorance then. Spasticity doesnt effect all disabled people and it would be offensive to call them so.

    Offensive is in the eye of the beholder. Just because you dont mind doesnt make it okay.

    What the hell are you talking about? I have always said antisemites and anti semitic views have no place in the world of decency. The only arguments I have made were that the critisism of Israel's government is not anti semitic just as critisism about UK government is not anti british.

    Now if you can point me to a Labour policy that you say is anti semitic or a labour campaign that was anti semitic that I have supported you might have a point.

    edit: I have to say after the last couple of days since the Tory problem has been reported again and the denial by those on the right that there is a problem I now have more sympathy towards Dolph and his rabid (uncompromising?) arguments about anti semitism in Labour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  2. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    Ok here we go lets see what constitutes the Tories 'Islamophobia problems'

    I presume you mean like defending the right for individuals to wear archaic and often internally perceived as oppressive religious clothing in a free society whilst pointing out the issues with it in a Telegraph article?

    'Denmark has got it wrong. Yes, the burka is oppressive and ridiculous – but that's still no reason to ban it '

    Which had the following comments in it


    I don't think I really need to point out to you that there is considerable resistance to such practices from within Islam and that women of all races can and do wear head/ face coverings?



    *Citations needed* but not necessarily expected from you because I expect a lot of them would be as weak as your other attempts in your post


    Being an illegal immigrant/ Visa overstayer etc is to commit a criminal offence Tony. The whole point of criminalising something is to create a 'hostile environment' for it so as to seek to reduce its incidence. Enforcing national borders is essential to the existence of the nation state and vital to retaining any semblance of a welfare state/ social security

    It is of course to be expected of a contemporary Labour zealot to condone and even tacitly support criminality when it suits your wider political goals but were onto you Tony. We can see what's happening when a large body of the politics you represent cant quite get themselves to commit to openly seeking to legislate for open borders but yet seek to undermine the enforcement of associated laws by crying racism


    Again *Citation needed* but not expected for you. Ill be clear that it would be silly to claim there's no racism displayed by individual tory members or supporters but rather that the problem is far worse with Labour and that there is tacit support for overt racism from the very top of the party



    No it doesn't work like that Tony because I was pointing out that Anti Semitism more often concentrates on perceived negative attributes of an ethnic group as a whole (whether or not these are true or not) where as so called 'Islamophobia' concentrates more on the ideas of Islam. I can and will be critical of some of the ideas that come from Judaic scripture such and associated practices such as divinely mandated land in perpetuity or the requirement to cut away at young children's genitals shortly after birth much like I will criticise other religions and ideas for their practices and beliefs. But anti Semitism all too often doesn't work around criticising Judaic ideas but rather Jewish identity which is why we see non practicing/observant/ atheistic Jews also being the targets.

    Well maybe you are starting to see the light and you can accept that the left are actually the dangerous ones as there is nothing more dangerous then am person committing an evil act whilst convinces themselves they are doing good?
     
  3. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,418

    Maybe you should have a good look at that line and take on your own advice. I will never accept that the left are worse than the right wing racists.
     
  4. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    There you go forum no amount of evidence or information will change Tony's pre conceived dogmatic political views.

    Tony will always be an apologist for left wing racism because he thinks right wing racism is always worse..... no need for further examination!

    You truly are a cliché of current collective left thinking Tony
     
  5. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,418

    How and where have I been an apologist for anti semitism? Im fairly sure most people on this forum know your stance on these discussions. Racism is racism there is no difference from left to right. You are the cliche with your Islamaphobia is not racism denial.
     
  6. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    Except that right wing racism is worse, and more common.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RizMokal/status/908200862031532034

    Survey conducted by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research. Enjoy.
     
  7. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    In your dogmatic insistence that 'right wing' racism is always worse the 'left wing' racism when you accept that currently anti Semitism is an issue on the left with 'islamophobia' predominately coming from the 'right'

    Your saying yes my sad has done some bad things but look... look those people over there are worse and will always be worse regardless of what my side does because I saw the opposition are always the more culpable
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,418

    I didnt say left wing racism isnt bad. I said the left will never be worse than right wing racists. I didnt say left wing racists as they are just as racist. I might have implied that right wing racism is bigger or more widespread within the right.

    Instead of bolding your posts why dont you just use CAPS we all know you want to.
     
  9. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420



    this old trick.......

    'Overall, there was no significant differentiation in antisemitic attitudes along the Left/Right spectrum, except on the Far Right. 4'

    Expect when we look at who the media label the 'Far Right' we find all too often find a bunch of socialists?

    These 'far right' people are far more ideologically aligned with people like Tony then me.

    Tony just disagrees with them on who should be the recipients of state socialism
     
  10. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 7, 2012

    Posts: 11,239

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Whatever the ins and outs of anti-semitism in our political parties, it sure does distract from talking about much else....
     
  11. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    Hence you are an apologist... which you can still be whilst conceding that the group you are apologising for has done some bad but some other group is *always* worse
     
  12. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    I haven't seen anyone saying I'm wrong, so presumably it's Faustus and Dolph. Neither of whom are known for their broad knowledge or good faith arguments.

    And yeah, you don't know outside of London, where presumably you went to school at Oswald Mosley Comprehensive and never interacted with a single person who would fail the paper bag test. In Northwest England at the very least it was more than your teeth were worth to call a black person "coloured".
     
  13. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,123

    Oh look, someone's brought out "the Nazis had socialist in their name!" for a spin.
     
  14. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    They had it in their manifesto aswell and in practice were big on state inference in industry and direction of the economy by central planning like all good socialists

    The point remains that people like you and Tony are being disingenuous when you try and lump, controlled government size, fiscally conservative, libertarian, individual rights and responsibilities advocates like me to people who advocate for mass state socialism for only one racial group rather then a class based group like vanilla socialism
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  15. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,695

    Yet your group seems infested by bad actors, why is that?
     
  16. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    *Citations needed* and we can see whether the 'citied' examples really are part of 'my group' as you put it
     
  17. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,695

    He GOP/conservatives in America state themselves as all those things, yet curiously do all the opposite things in reality, not sure I really need to cite this.

    A huge percentage of their supporters seem not to care about the huge deficit their leadership has increased, yet constantly attacked their ‘political enemies’ for it when they did it?

    You could say that they’re not truly conservative, but they name themselves that so...

    We’ve clearly seen the Tories climb down from their lofty high horses lately on being fiscally conservative and then having their private business contracts explode because the companies go insolvent...

    I’m struggling to see where your group is if it’s not them. Oh and the porn blocker that goes live in April, that’s ‘small government’ right?
     
  18. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,420

    I'm happy to be critical of the GOP party when it comes to spending and deficits. Outside of the USA's massive military most of their spending is to prop up the social programs that they cant get rid of or reduce whilst fending of the populism of the ever increasingly socialist Democrats

    and on the subject of their military spending plenty of western nations are being hypocrites here criticising the USA when they have historically and still do benefit from the cover the US military provide.
     
  19. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,550

    Location: Plymouth

    It's not me for the record.
     
  20. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,418

    Im not apologising for anything. What is wrong with you? You are the one saying islamaphobiia isnt racism because you could possible fall into that catagory yourself I assume?
    Yep I will verify not Dolph.

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019