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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,223

    I'm saying that what all to often what is lumped as 'racist' 'islamophobia' is actually criticism of the ideas and practices of Islam where as anti semitism is more often attacks on the ethnic category of the Jews rather then the ideas or practices of Judaism there is no ethnic group that defines Islam like is almost universally the case with the Jews

    Its quite possible to be actually racist whilst also being critical of Islam and not racist whilst criticising the ideas of Judaism

    But then when your so blinkered as to procalim that one side is and always will be worse than an other I can understand why you might struggle with these sort of concepts that don't conform to your simplistic binary thinking of right = bad or at least always worse than the left mentality
     
  2. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    And what Im saying is critisism of Islam is more often than not fueled by racism. Just like the anti semitism on the right is fueled by racism. Where as on the left anti semitism often boils out of critisism of Israel and then grows into an all encompassing antisemitism feeling or at least critisism which is where the problems/racism come from.

    I do actually owe Dolph a slight apology because after speaking to some of my friends about the Labour problem I sometimes have to pull them up on how they express that critisism, but not as much as I have to pull my right wing friends up on racism. For me it is the actions of the right wing Israel government I dont like, just as I dont like the actions of the right wing Tories and am still quite critical of New Labour as they are right of where I sit on the compass.

    Jews I have no biased opinion on as I dont blame "The Jews" for the actions of Israel I blame the right wing. So yes to me the Right will always be worse than the Left because of their policies. Left wing racists and right wing racists are as bad as each other as far as Im concerned.

    If you cant see the racism in Islamaphobia then you have a problem sir. Just as if you cant see racism in anti semitism you have a problem. You can try and defend islamaphobia all you like but in the way it is used on this forum and by the right in general it is racism Im afraid. Criticism of Islam is not racist just as criticism of any religion is not racist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  3. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,223

    But yet strangely we don't see a comparable amount of issues with other religions like Hinduism and Sikhism which more then Islam are comprised of fewer (non white) racial groups.

    You will never be able explain the comparative lack (note not total absence off) of 'sikhophobia' and 'Hinduophobia' by your simplistic reduction because if islamophobia really was just cover for racism then the same would be true in equal regard to the other examples I provide.
     
  4. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    Ironicaly except by Muslims. Also most racists think all asian people are muslims even those wearing Turbans.
     
  5. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,223

    Nice to see a display of your ignorance when you are clumsily trying to call out others you think are 'racist'

    If you had half a clue you would know that Muslims do wear turbans in some circumstances.

    I'm normally able to tell a sikh wearing a tuban from a Muslim also wearing one.

    You would have to be a very low IQ individual and ignorant of the world to think being Asian is a synonym for being Muslim (most of India and China for starters come to mind ) perhaps the sort of person that engages in simplistic binary thinking maybe?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  6. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    Wow I see you are fully up on your dislike for islam. I credit you with all the research you have done in the need to forfill it. But you know that I was talking about Sikhs.
     
  7. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,223

    But yet you apparently didn't know Muslims also wear turbans rendering you prone to exactly the sort of mis attribution of a person's religious beliefs you accused other of which fuels their apparent racism in your view.
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    Thats most racist you are right.
    Im not an ignorant racist so it doesnt effect me. Do you really think I have seen Imams on TV and thought hmm whats that sikh doing speaking to muslims?

    That is my last word on this to you as it is not only boring and ignorant but just really repetative now.
     
  9. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,223

    Tony I just believe there are different types of racist there are certainly the just plain ignorant ones. ..

    But also there are the ones who don't see they are racist or downplay racism from their political side because they adhere to dogmatic belief systems.

    The former aren't so much a problem in of themsleves as being ignorant they are unlikely to wield much power. The latter are far more a concern.

    Labour have allowed racism to fester in their ranks exactly because they adhere to the sort of thinking your espouse.. .. that it's their political opponents who will always be worse when it comes to racism.
     
  10. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,314

    Ah! but there's the rub. People tend to disguise their anti-Semitic views by stating they are against Israel not their people.

    I along with many others am not buying it. Corbyn's actions or perhaps that should be inaction speak louder than his words.

    Regarding causing offense, people really need to man up, we've become such a feeble lot it's embarrassing.
     
  11. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    With this I agree.
    Hmm its not our world any more old man :/
     
  12. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    ..
     
  13. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,382

    When you start to assume it when you loose the arugment. I grew up in Leytonstone, a rough part of east london and my school was a pile of rubbish and we were multi-cultural school before most people knew what that word even meant.
     
  14. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,382

    Never happened,

    The only times i heard the word used when we wanted to call a normal person an simple idiot "You Spactic" etc
     
  15. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 38,513

    Perhaps you had a limited social group consisting of rather stupid people.

    Spastic referred to a specific subset, not all disabled people. It is offensive because it was used as an insult towards people, I remember it being used in school playgrounds in the 90s.

    "ah you spacker that was a hand ball" etc..

    So the word was substituted and the charity the Spastic's society changed it's name to Scope. This partially solved the problem, though kids being inventive little ****s did make some attempt at using "Scoper" as an insult instead.
     
  16. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,166

    Then you sir moved around in better circles than me.
     
  17. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 61,491

    Heard it a lot in the 90s often it wasn't intended hurtfully but sometimes definitely was. Lot of casual use when I was a kid by other kids when someone did something stupid. Didn't experience it used as a blanket term for all disabled but probably half the time it was used in the context of someone disabled it was meant insultingly.
     
  18. Faustus

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 20, 2007

    Posts: 5,314

    Who cares, I tell it like it is and if those I converse with in the real world don't like it I simply shrug my shoulders and tell'm to suck it up.

    One benefit of being older, you don't need to conform to political correctness.
     
  19. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,022

    ‘Tell it like it is’ is just as abused in a similar manner, usually as a justification to spout nonsense that is based usually on anecdotes and opinions.

    It’s entirely fine if it’s factual and you use it in a beneficial manner (when it would actually aid a situation and not just add worthless **** onto a fire for personal gratification), but the value is lost when you just base your personality around it.

    It’s also being coopted by nefarious belligerents in the form of ultranationalists, religious fanaticism and conspiracy theorists.
     
  20. jimjamuk

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 30, 2007

    Posts: 2,734

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Yep this was a thing in the south West aswell. Probably one of the most common insults at that time