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The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    The problem is, until corbyn himself resigns, or is kicked out, the standard of acceptable behaviour in the party can never be brought into line with the expected standard of behaviour.
     
  2. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    It won't mysteriously go away, if corbyn is ousted and the party purged of those he brought into it such as Andrew Murray, the problem will go away because the cause of the problem has been removed from power.
     
  3. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,271

    Location: Cornwall

    So you've got Corbyn and all Corbyn's allies pegged as antisemites then?

    That's quite a claim.
     
  4. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    Andrew Murray

    https://antisemitism.uk/andrew-murr...ing-roots-of-9-11-lay-in-zionist-colonialism/

    Karrie murphy

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/top-corbyn-aide-member-of-facebook-hate-group-1.483492

    Seamus milne

    https://www.jpost.com/International...be-responsible-for-Labour-antisemitism-582120

    Corbyn himself.

    The mural

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural

    Forewarding a known antisemitic book

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hobson-imperalism-jewish-labour-a8894086.html

    That's corbyn and his leaders office team (the same one in the panorama emails interfering and disrupting attempts to address the problem).

    Yes, I'd say its pretty clear that Corbyn and his office have a problem.
     
  5. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,271

    Location: Cornwall

    Well that mainly seems to be anti-Israel.

    But also bonkers. And not something I want to defend if those people really do have those viewpoints as reported. Being pro-islamic extremism/terrorism is not going to get my vote.

    But then I wasn't planning to vote Labour anyhow. With or without Corbyn.
     
  6. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    'Anti-israel' is to antisemitism what 'anti-immigration' is to white supremacy, a dishonest smokescreen.
     
  7. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,212

    The key H.E. policy was the right to rent legislation (Landlords to check immigration status) It was found by the high court to be a cause of racial discrimination.
    Specifically that race was used as a proxy for being a suspected immigrant and in particular Black Britons were routinely discriminated against under the law.

    The go home vans. Which manages to mix a couple of tropes ' go back to where you come from'/ association with crime and arrest.

    Trumps 'go home' comments are defended by Fox news on the same basis you just gave 'it refers to all immigrants and is therefore not racist. Not sure if you would get that apology past a high court judge.

    The windrush scandal was the high watermark of the failure of the hostile environment policy and a national disgrace.

    No its not identical to labor's issues, yes you can defend the bigoted nature of the acts hiding behind a standard Fox news/ Trump defense, this has nothing to do with skin colour. I am sure the government Lawyers would have made that claim defending the 'right to rent legislation.'

    It did not work and got called out by the courts for what it was. " A cause of racial discrimination"
     
  8. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,271

    Location: Cornwall

    You can't possibly believe that being anti-immigration is the same as being a white supremacist. Really?
     
  9. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    They aren't the same thing, however they are used as a cover. People who hate non whites claim to be anti-immigration instead, and antisemites claim to be anti-Israel instead. Its why you have to look deeper. The conspiracy theory promoted by Murray, for example, is a classic antisemitic canard, with a simple substitution of zionist for jew.

    There's a really simple test to see whether criticism of Israel is codified antisemitism or not, and that is whether it is proportionate and consistent with how the individual treats other countries.
     
  10. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,271

    Location: Cornwall

    OK so you're not saying everyone who wants immigration restrictions is a white supremacist then. Fair enough. Thought that was a bit extreme!
     
  11. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 46,648

    Location: Plymouth

    I'm not defending the policy at all. However, that it provided an easy means for individuals to act in a racist manner is a good reason to strike it down, but not a good reason to claim that was the aim, you would need to provide something more than that.

    Windrush was absolutely shocking and still hasn't been sorted out properly, but was caused by incompetence, not malice. It was under labour that the landing card records were destroyed without being properly and securely recorded.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-who-destroyed-the-windrush-landing-cards

    The mixing of the hostile environment together with the destruction of paperwork is where the windrush problem stemmed from. It should absolutely never have happened, but again, it isn't the result of racist policy making.

    The go home vans were just disgusting. Should never have happened. Pure dog whistle tactics.
     
  12. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,212

    Windrush fits Macphersons description of Institutional Racism. Point to the key terms "unwitting prejudice," "it can be seen or detected in the processes."

    I would suggest that both Labour and the Conservatives have issues here.



    Some examples from Windrush

    This policy was enacted for years. Home office was well aware it had issues here. Given the huge cost in suffering and clear injustice, the time it took to resolve is damming.

    The fact that conservative Ministers are not overt racists nor were specifically acting on a racist intent is not an excuse nor does it suggest that institutional racism was not at play here .

    They are responsible for this and they own it. System not fit for purpose that targeted a minority culture in a horrifying way for years.

    In exactly the same way that senior officials in the Labour party are responsible for it's issue's.

    Suggesting that one side is free of issues while the other is rife with them is problematic I think in regard to actually resolving the issues.

    The accused party will seek to absolve itself and its behavior on the grounds it is being attacked for purely political motives and not tackle its issues. Develop a trench warfare attitude in which it becomes a faultless victim.

    The accusers get to do some serious virtue signaling and play down any internal issues here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  13. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,212

    p.s without wanting to down play the concern about Labour here which is significant. Campaign Against Anti- Semitisim flags concern about the Labour party and the failure of the Crown Prosecution services to act on recommendations as its primary concern.

    Here however is some of its data. The issue is very clearly not confined to the left and where it appears to be most concentrated should be of particular alarm moving forward in both Labour and the Conservative party.

    edit add some demographics for the Conservative party for comparison. It in part may explain the above data from the C.A.A.

    At the very least it suggests a grouping with a significant diversity issue in regard to ethnicity/ gender and age.

    Gender and age disparity place it on the 'high risk' group in terms of the anti-Semitic demographic. Which in turn illustrates the issue of having such poor diversity within the party.

    Its a significant organizational and leadership fail that should be of considerable concern to any credible organization.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  14. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,190

    You'd better not be being serious here.

    Headline: LABOUR IS RIFE WITH ANTISEMITISM
    Corbyn: No it isn't
    Headline: CORBYN IGNORES LABOUR ANTISEMITISM

    Headline: LABOUR IS RIFE WITH ANTISEMITISM
    Corbyn: We will get rid of any Labour member who is anti-Semitic
    Headline: "LABOUR IS ANTISEMITIC", CORBYN CONFESSES
     
  15. robgmun

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 30, 2006

    Posts: 14,639

    Not even that, it was aimed at ILLEGAL immigrants, not ones that settled here through legal means
     
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 19,237

    Ahh the good old path of good intentions diatribe, completely irrelevant when in reality it started hurting entirely legal immigrants.
     
  17. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,212

    Cunning plan to throw some red meat the the party faithful, create a legal framework that is very difficult to navigate or understand, enlist Doctors, Teachers, Estate Agents and landlords as a Dads Army of amateur border enforcement agents to ensure everyone's papers are in order and a bureaucracy to ensure that as many people as possible do not have the correct paper work in a bid to hit the promised cut in immigration.

    What could possible have gone wrong :rolleyes:
     
  18. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 16,812

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    Corbyn's had years to get on top of this. He's not done so and, meanwhile, his outriders continue to defend the behaviour of those who are a problem and act like the whole thing is a conspiracy. You'll excuse me if I have no faith in him to do anything useful about it. This seems more like a belated attempt at PR than a serious move to root out anti-Semitism.
     
  19. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 2,571

    I have to say Dolph you are priceless.

    You have just done what you accuse Labour supporters of doing. Infact you have hinted that I am an antisemite/racist for not even doing what you have just done but claiming I have.

    Court rules something is racist but as its the Tories thats still not good enough for you and not racist in your view. Racist policies come down from the very top and still not institutional enough for you.

    Labour members being racist idiots and that is a clear institutional racism crisis in the Labour party for you. Tory government brings in policies and campaigns that almost everyone (even Farage) but you can see is racist and you say they are being misunderstood.

    Well played sir. Well played.
     
  20. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 11, 2014

    Posts: 1,212

    He has run with a difficult and complex issue and screwed it up big time. Not a good sign of his ability.

    The Israel/ Palestine issue is also a very serious matter that should be the subject of considerable debate. This issue makes an already problematic area far worse.
    It is a significant fail and clearly as long as he is leader it is just going to roll on and on.

    I think the left are correct in noting they face considerable bias from the media here, but that makes it more important to handle situations correctly, clearly and with clarity.
    Left has been big on excuses poor in terms of action.
    He needs to go. Left need to get its act together and present a credible candidate for leadership who is more effective.