1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Labour Party: Where do we go from here?

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by q974739, Nov 25, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    Why are you bringing property prices into it? that's nothing do with it.

    New York could easily impose a rent control like Berlin.

    I'm fully aware about wages stagnating, it's pretty much what i work on, it's nothing to do with "the rich" per se. It's globalisation, it's China taking over the manufacturing market, and producing more productive workers for less cost. That's the real reason for US wages stagnating, taxing some billionaires and taking there money will not create some utopia of $25 an hour for putting together a simple product.

    Yes, agreed. Big corps need to pull their weight, but we are moving into a new era with digital finance which is going to dramatically reduce tax fraud and corruption. Might take 10 or so years but i do believe in 10/20 years time, this will won't a huge problem like it is now. The current financial system was created in the 70's, it's very easy to manipulate and hide money.
     
  2. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,412

    Economic historians have said that the so-called 'trickle-down' effect was actually a 'trickle-up' effect. As a policy will take a while to work on the economy most of the policies that did work were created earlier. Low taxation in itself is not a good driver as 1. it will inevitably create problems down the line like inflation 2. Low taxation creates it's own problems because low taxation = low investment in infrastructure/benefits etc, etc. 3. The benefits of low taxation are skewed towards the wealthy so creating a very unequal society. If you think the last 30 years are bad then 30 years of 'trickle-up-down' economics would be disastrous.
     
  3. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,145

    You can't impose rent control on businesses, i'm not talking about people living in them, i'm talking about what would usually have been a small enterprise rented from a landlord.

    Well the landlord can't rent below cost or the banks will eviscerate them, there's even moments where'd they would rather you rent it for FREE just to keep the valuation of the property up, it's a ******* joke and it's not sustainable.
     
  4. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    Read the rest of the thread, i believe in a progressive tax system.
    But i'm in favour of lower taxes for all. This is just a fundamental difference in opinion, i don't believe governments should be reaching into our pockets every 2 seconds.
    Find me an economic historian that will prove that high taxes creates huge prosperity, why do you think the Nordic countries are moving away from those policies? if they even had them, that is.

    What has that got to do with anything?
     
  5. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 6,732

    Yep, Boris wants a race to the bottom. Get more companies here and dodging tax, by giving them lower tax rates and then they have less tax to dodge. That's fine if you're an ex minister looking for a non-executive board position that pays you 60 grand a year for two days work a month, but not so good if you want to improve the country. Has no one explained to the buffoon that less tax means less money in the government coffers? Not that the Tories ever care about that when it comes to business tax. All they want to do is more austerity for the country while they fill their own pockets.
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,145

    Everything, the banks use property value to dole out loans beyond their reserves to do so. Usually to the very billionaires abusing it.
     
  7. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,635

    LOl why you guys are debating about fairness with a Trump supporter is beyond me.
     
  8. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    Lets take your side of the argument, taxes are increased. What happens to transactions amongst people in the economy? which then does what to credit? Will there be more credit or less credit available?
     
  9. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    Whats that got to do with it?

    I just don't believe that taxing the most productive people in society more and more produces more prosperity for all. History has told us this.
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,145

    It's not about taxing the most productive people, it's about taxing the right people who benefit grossly from current affairs to the detriment of the swiftly dying middle class who are being squeezed out by unscrupulous businesses while they don't bother paying more for the privilege.

    Right now we're on a death spiral and you're supporting it, god forbid people realise soon.
     
  11. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    I'm supporting a death spiral? What would you change the tax brackets to then? Who are these right people you are talking about exactly?

    You didn't answer my question above.
     
  12. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,465

    Location: Plymouth

  13. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,265

    Location: Cornwall

    The "most productive"... I'm afraid that says it all.

    Business owners do like to big themselves up as the only ones responsible for their businesses success (and the entire UK economy to boot).

    It's never about the people who make the products, deliver the services, and in so doing pay their fair share of tax via PAYE.

    Vs the business owners who buy all their personal goods via their business, avoiding all VAT, employ accountants to avoid all the taxes they might otherwise pay, yadda and yadda.

    They're extremely productive at feathering their own nests, and often very resentful about being "productive" in contributing to the treasury... But then again, they will claim that their employees tax contributions are coming from them...
     
  14. Pudney

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2005

    Posts: 5,433

    Location: Essex

    You don't seem to understand business taxation very well. Where have you learnt all of this from?
     
  15. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,145

    The credit lost in the bank system could be replaced by a concerted effort from a investment program by government, but that's beyond my ability to truly explain, all i know is that the current link between how business loans and property prices work is fundamentally a pyramid scheme in the long term going by the evidence of no real wage growth for the middle class and the struggling lower half in general. Local governments are paralyzed with no ability to maneuver in supporting SME growth while rent's spiral out of control across the board meaning less money in the immediate economy (a death spiral as i said) because property prices are controlled by a hegemonic grip of fund management and fluidity of credit.

    There's no point in there being that fluidity of credit if it either goes to the very people that are unequally benefiting from this system of upwards financial movement, or businesses that then have to spend disproportionate amounts on rent to those very same people.

    It's not an easy topic, but this can't end well as far as i can see it, people will wise up eventually when they realise who's stolen their growth, it's not good enough to just hide it under the auspices of the water that raises all ships (GDP growth).

    Anyway i'm done with this topic, it's too complex to condense and i'm not familiar enough with the details/minutia of the flow of credit/debt/assets/shares to feel confident beyond what i've indicated.
     
  16. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,265

    Location: Cornwall

    Perhaps you could get into specifics, which would be more helpful than what you posted.

    To somewhat answer your question, every self-employed person/small business owner I have ever met loves to gloat about how they avoid VAT on all their gaming PC hardware, new cars, new kitchen, you name it.

    One of the "perks" of being a wealth creator, no doubt?
     
  17. Pudney

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2005

    Posts: 5,433

    Location: Essex

    For example, personal goods bought through the business - either a Benefit in Kind to the owner, or goes to the Director's Loan Account (assuming Ltd), in which case there is zero tax benefit to doing so. If sole trader then simply not deductible, or if partly business asset you need to restrict the deduction to the business element only.

    VAT - not reclaimable on personal goods.
     
  18. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,265

    Location: Cornwall

    That's why they claim all their purchases are for the business.

    Are you saying this abuse isn't happening? Because we all know it is. It's commonplace.

    If the car is "owned by the business" it's not your personal car, for example. If the gaming PC is to "do the accounts", it's not a personal purchase.

    Regardless, that's not something the most wealthy need to do.

    A C4 investigation of some two or three years ago, showed that many of the genuinely wealthy are paying 10% *or less* in total taxation.

    They are the most equipped to employ every loophole in the book, and the genuinely wealthy (including celebs, sport personalities and wealthy execs) actually do not pay the highest taxes. Talk of 45% + income tax rates are made farcical when, in actual fact, they are paying often <10%.

    That is their choice, of course. They could choose to pay the highest rates of tax but many simply choose not to, by employing the services of firms such as those C4 interviewed.

    e: So again, calling them the "most productive" members of society is somewhat insulting when viewed on those terms.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  19. Pudney

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2005

    Posts: 5,433

    Location: Essex

    The rules don't allow it, I've explained the consequences. People may well do it but they're illegally doing it (if knowingly) or mistakenly doing it otherwise.

    Following your argument why don't we raise VAT because shoplifters don't pay their fair share of VAT?
     
  20. Trusty

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 12, 2006

    Posts: 10,691

    Location: On A Rocket

    Where is this evidence that the richest are paying 10% tax?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.