The muslims are at it again

cleanbluesky · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:43

Sleepy said:
So given these 'extremist' elements in our society, roundly condemned by our leaders, just how are we better than Islam on this issue?

There is no organised movement to kill homosexuals within this country. One man (with mental illness IIRC) with a pipebomb is apples and oranges

Raz · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:46

cleanbluesky said:
There is no organised movement to kill homosexuals within this country. One man (with mental illness IIRC) with a pipebomb is apples and oranges

edit*

never mind.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:47

VIRII said:
Some? But not an entire religion and allegedly the fastest growing one at that?
Does your average normal Brit want gays people stoned to death?
I think not.

And I agree with your final sentance, but then again most Britains are not really followers of xianity so xian teachings don't hold particular weight when forming a view on a moral position.

BTW whilst the quran condems homosexuality it does not define the punishment. That comes from other sources. so to say that Islam requires the stoning of gays is actually debatable.

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:51

Raz said:
can I ask, must other people, in another land, live by your morals?

If their ideology is uniform regardless of the land that they live in then it matters if it is not compatible with our way of life here.
Equally must we in this land exercise care not to offend ideologies in and from other lands?

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:54

Sleepy said:
And I agree with your final sentance, but then again most Britains are not really followers of xianity so xian teachings don't hold particular weight when forming a view on a moral position.

BTW whilst the quran condems homosexuality it does not define the punishment. That comes from other sources. so to say that Islam requires the stoning of gays is actually debatable.

I think it is undeniable that Xian teachings are the root of pretty much all of our law and morality.

Should there be a punishment for being gay? Regardless of what it is? Bearing in mind it can be stoning and is pretty much guaranteed to be death the extreme nature of Islams approach to homosexuality is hardly in line with the "tolerance" that Muslims DEMAND they receive here.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:55

VIRII said:
Because the vast majority of our culture will not and do not want homosexuals harmed, nor do they find them an insult to God.
Indeed our culture has celebrated homosexuals for a long time, examples being Oscar Wilde and Kenneth Williams, more recently Julian Clary and so on.
Our culture is better because we are more tolerant of homosexuals and do not promote or condone or excuse harming people.
Please tell me which muslim countries would allow Julian Clary....

Oscar Wilde was jailed for gross indecency ie a sexual act between two men. So not the best example of acceptence.

However that irrelevent, the point is that its not a universal tolerance, there are elements who disagree and whilst the majority only protest by legal means. However there are extremists who go beyond the pale and its this element who so strike me as similar in motivation to Islamic terrorists. By that I mean that they are so certain that their view is right and justified by religion or natural law that they go beyond all normal limits of decent civilised behaviour.

So given that then we aren't so superior as you posited a page or so back.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 22:59

cleanbluesky said:
There is no organised movement to kill homosexuals within this country. One man (with mental illness IIRC) with a pipebomb is apples and oranges

But there are organised elements to recriminalise it, and it wasn't just one nut with a bomb. Two men killed a barmen cos he was gay, and I can list other fatal attacks. Plus I can list non fatal assaults on people solely due to their orientation.

So given that it is not the act of a madmen as Sudden Jihadi Syndrome is often described as, but a belief held by many.

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:01

Sleepy said:
Oscar Wilde was jailed for gross indecency ie a sexual act between two men. So not the best example of acceptence.

However that irrelevent, the point is that its not a universal tolerance, there are elements who disagree and whilst the majority only protest by legal means. However there are extremists who go beyond the pale and its this element who so strike me as similar in motivation to Islamic terrorists. By that I mean that they are so certain that their view is right and justified by religion or natural law that they go beyond all normal limits of decent civilised behaviour.

So given that then we aren't so superior as you posited a page or so back.

Oscar wilde was indeed locked up for buggering the son of a Lord who wasn't overly happy about it.
However that was a very long time ago and our culture and law had changed hence it is progressive and self examining. Yet another factor that lifts it above that of the static and fixed Islamic stoneage ideology.

Homosexuals are protected by law not condemned by law as per islam.

Not every single person agrees with it but then we allow our people the freedom to think for themselves and to consider their own morality instead of having a requirement for them to learna book by rote and to agree with every single aspect of it. Yet another example of why our culture exceeds that of Islam.

If the actions of a few drag the entire culture down then does the action of a suicide bomber condemn all muslims for all time?

squiffy · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:01

Are those people/groups anything to do with religion though? You don't have to be religious to hate gays. ie football "lads"

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:02

Sleepy said:
But there are organised elements to recriminalise it, and it wasn't just one nut with a bomb. Two men killed a barmen cos he was gay, and I can list other fatal attacks. Plus I can list non fatal assaults on people solely due to their orientation.

So given that it is not the act of a madmen as Sudden Jihadi Syndrome is often described as, but a belief held by many.

Isn't that another reason why our culture is superior? It can be challenged, it can be changed it can progress. Unlike Islam of course.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:03

VIRII said:
I think it is undeniable that Xian teachings are the root of pretty much all of our law and morality.

Yep but in so many ways we've moved on, from a basic xian position and in fact the various churches have changed their positions over time. Especially over sexuality, pre marital sex, orientation, divorce etc.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:07

VIRII said:
Isn't that another reason why our culture is superior? It can be challenged, it can be changed it can progress.

Agree

Unlike Islam of course.

Again no matter the propoganda put out by muslims they do change their views based on interpretaions of the quran and haadith. They just don't like saying it. Plus of course given a limited fixed source from which to base their ideology they will lack flexibility in certain areas.

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:09

Sleepy said:
Yep but in so many ways we've moved on, from a basic xian position and in fact the various churches have changed their positions over time. Especially over sexuality, pre marital sex, orientation, divorce etc.

Yup we've moved on because we've looked at our beliefs critically and challenged them and debated them and examined them and come to the conclusion that for the most part if we are not harming others then it is OK.
Of course some people see this as a weakness on our part.
The strict teachings of Jesus "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would actually support tolerance and leniancy "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" instead of violence and execution.

Ideologies that refuse to keep up with change and which want to revert to harsh and violent stoneage punishments are hardly beneficial or compatible with western life.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:10

squiffy said:
Are those people/groups anything to do with religion though? You don't have to be religious to hate gays. ie football "lads"

Where does the hate derive from. In the west it comes from xian teachings. however thats moot, what we are discussing is not homosexuality but about how western and Islamic cultures deal with the issue and how in some ways they are identical.

Sleepy · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:12

VIRII said:
<snip>

See a few posts above for response.

If the actions of a few drag the entire culture down then does the action of a suicide bomber condemn all muslims for all time?

Of course not, but then thats one of my points.

VIRII · 16 Feb 2007 at 23:15

Sleepy said:
Of course not, but then thats one of my points.

Then the actions of a few western people who hate homosexuals is not relevent to the over riding approach to homosexuality in the West which is to tolerate it, accept it, protect it in Law and not to discriminate against it.
This is of course completely different from the Islamic approach of hating homosexuals, killing them, imprisoning them and seeing them as offensive to God.
The Islamic approach is clearly not compatible with the Western approach, indeed such institutionalised homophobia and hatred should be illegal if it can be shown to incite hatred or violence.