*** The Official Destiny Thread (now includes 2.0 and TTK) ***

[LackyT]

Personally, I feel a lot of the problems in destiny is the focus on the average player. Bungie has said they want Destiny to be a competitive game, but then every balance patch and change is aimed at the average player leading us to the current Meta. In an average lobby primaries are perfectly fine, because titans don't skate, warlocks all float around very slowly, hunters either just blink or run. But when you get to higher level Destiny play everyone moves at 100mph. Primaries fall apart very quickly in this meta. Leaving you with lobby after lobby were 2/3 of the kills is from shotguns.

Good points.

I understand exactly where you're coming from Mid, that its easy to sit there and criticise how the devs should fix something. But, I do feel that in Destiny specifically, the devs handle the balance and communication poorly. I would much rather they use 5% of the weekly post to give us feedback, than just stubbornly giving us nothing until a patch that is inevitably out of touch. Especially in this case when we are talking slight weapon balance, not adding a feature that doesn't exist.

They have, at times, clearly misled the community (SBMM) and messed up (weapon damage in patch notes vs actual figures etc). They are reactive instead of pro-active and also brutish in their patches e.g. too many of X weapon being used, destroy entire archetype. To be brutally honest, those testing in the sandbox seem to be very average PvP players and I just think they would benefit from input/consultation from the better players. Public Test Servers for Division and BF4 for example seem to have helped a lot. While not applicable to Destiny, what harm is there in taking feedback from multiple/other sources?

 

[Fallen god]

They are reactive instead of pro-active and also brutish in their patches e.g. too many of X weapon being used, destroy entire archetype. To be brutally honest, those testing in the sandbox seem to be very average PvP players and I just think they would benefit from input/consultation from the better players.

It does at times seem like they don't exactly know or even understand how to fix a problem so they just make a whole weapon archetype or class useless. A good example of decent patching is overwatch. They take a character and slowly tweaky it, with window maker they reduce the bodyshot for snipers as it was too strong but left headshot the same damage, on Destiny they nerf'd damage across the board which seems weird and they justified it by saying they wanted supers to feel super which is confusing as landing a headshot is tricky, and shotguns didn't change so I can still just shotgun just about every roaming super in the game so effectively makes little difference.

With mccree they slowly reduces his damage fall off till it was at a good point, Destiny they just made all hand cannons useless for awhile. Even now they don't work well, the accuracy cone doesn't match your range so you can be within the weapons range but your shots don't land, and when you add the high aim assist in Destiny it feels like your weapons doesn't work.

At times it just feels like they take stab at things and see what happens, they change far to many things at once and even after 2+ years the meta still doesn't feel great. Either way finding out that the game has a 10hz tick rate is a huge turn off :/.

 

[redrooster303]

Some decent bits and bats in here, didn't know about the gheleon artifact or xur is in another game lol

 

[Psycho Sonny]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyThe...tickrate_trades_fps_and_you_why_destinys_hit/

Also you guys seen this, Destiny has a tick rate of 10 fml thats trash, no wonder you trade and get shot behind the wall constantly. The thread goes through a good amount of detail to explain why tick rate is important.

There has been a few posts about the tick rate before. 100ms and 10 tick been banded about before.

I remember roughly 13 years ago we used to play on 66 or 100 tick servers on CS:Source. If a client logged onto a server with a lower than 66 tick rate they would be auto booted from the server explaining why. They then had to up their tick rate before they could play on that server.

So 13 years later and we are using a refresh rate which is 10 times slower.

This is where dedicated servers would likely solve these types of things. The average gamer doesn't have good internet. They have 3MB download and a few kbps upload.

 

[mid_gen]

All the talk of Destiny and competitive gaming is just a cheap bit of marketing fluff. It never has been and never will be a serious competitive game.

You're right, the game isn't designed for the sweaties. I like it that way. If I want to get sweaty I'll go sit at my PC (oo-er) and play a twitchy shooter.

It can all change with Destiny 2 though. They will have made the decision by now about whether or not to support PC...that'll be the kicker that decides how much more 'competitive' the multiplayer side of things will go.

 

[Fallen god]

All the talk of Destiny and competitive gaming is just a cheap bit of marketing fluff. It never has been and never will be a serious competitive game.

You're right, the game isn't designed for the sweaties. I like it that way. If I want to get sweaty I'll go sit at my PC (oo-er) and play a twitchy shooter.

It can all change with Destiny 2 though. They will have made the decision by now about whether or not to support PC...that'll be the kicker that decides how much more 'competitive' the multiplayer side of things will go.

There can be middle ground, just stick in a competitive mode. Either way a lot of things need to change even to have a base line casual game. As a casual game Destiny is fill with trading kills, really narrow meta game, a lot of bugs and weird things that happen.

Also don't need a PC to get sweaty, overwatch works well even on console, its better on PC but console is good.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

All the talk of Destiny and competitive gaming is just a cheap bit of marketing fluff. It never has been and never will be a serious competitive game.

You're right, the game isn't designed for the sweaties. I like it that way. If I want to get sweaty I'll go sit at my PC (oo-er) and play a twitchy shooter.

It can all change with Destiny 2 though. They will have made the decision by now about whether or not to support PC...that'll be the kicker that decides how much more 'competitive' the multiplayer side of things will go.

Tick rate should be as high as possible, not just because sweaty try hards prefer a higher tick rate, but because higher tick rate makes your game better. It is basic netcode 101. Everything is affected by it, particularly in games where movement and projectiles are in use and higher is better.

The common trend to use rubbish P2P server systems or cloud based servers means the game can be played by more people but the overall result is a far poorer online experience for everyone.

Server quality is something I feel developers/publishers skimp on constantly, and it is a real shame. A decent server can make the difference between an online multiplayer experience being so frustrating people dont want to play, to the experience being so smooth and precise that people are queuing up to get into the server.

Console gamers get **** on big time when it comes to the quality of the online multiplayer experience. It ****es me off considering the cost of the games and the money being made

 

[mid_gen]

There can be middle ground, just stick in a competitive mode. Either way a lot of things need to change even to have a base line casual game. As a casual game Destiny is fill with trading kills, really narrow meta game, a lot of bugs and weird things that happen.

Also don't need a PC to get sweaty, overwatch works well even on console, its better on PC but console is good.

It's not just a little change though. Any kind of competitive mode needs a completely new networking engine and infrastructure, major, major investment. I don't think there's a lot wrong with the casual crucible game at the moment, trading kills aside, but that's just part and parcel of the networking.

Do they want to go after that market? Do they need to? They've no doubt run the numbers and decided it's not worth doing for a console title.

If they do go for the PC market, their customer is different, so it'll have to make the investment for it to pay off.

TLDR; If Destiny 2 is going to be on PC, they'll go dedicated servers. If it stays console, don't hold your breath.

 

[mid_gen]

Tick rate should be as high as possible, not just because sweaty try hards prefer a higher tick rate, but because higher tick rate makes your game better. It is basic netcode 101. Everything is affected by it, particularly in games where movement and projectiles are in use and higher is better.

It's not just a case of increasing the 'tickrate' option on the server though. Would be nice if it was that simple! Last-gen consoles would have died on their ass handling higher rate synchronisation apart from anything.

Don't get me wrong, dedicated servers and a higher tickrate would be nice, but it's not 'just' something they can flip a switch to do. And the economics have to add up.

 

[LackyT]

but it's not 'just' something they can flip a switch to do.

Come on Mid, everyone knows about the increase tick rate switch And you call yourself a developer

On topic though, fingers crossed for Destiny 2!

 

[Fallen god]

It's not just a case of increasing the 'tickrate' option on the server though. Would be nice if it was that simple! Last-gen consoles would have died on their ass handling higher rate synchronisation apart from anything.

Don't get me wrong, dedicated servers and a higher tickrate would be nice, but it's not 'just' something they can flip a switch to do. And the economics have to add up.

Is it literally a setting on the server that says how often it should refresh. The difficult around it will depend on the networking stack bungie uses but for example overwatch just decided they wanted 60hz and it was done with some testing on the PTR.

From my understanding the reason it set to 10hz on Destiny is not exactly last gen as most console FPS have been 32hz for a long time. It is instead the networking choices for PvE. The way I understand it patrol is instanced with a P2P host, that host can handle X players and X enemies per slice of the map, and when you go through those loading screen its trying to find another host that can fit you and your party. I could see this part of the game being more difficult at 30hz for example. However I wish PvP and PvE weren't so closely tided together.

A good reference point is MW2 which was only last gen and is pretty old by todays standard and it runs at 33hz tick rate so its not the PS3/Xbox 360 limiting it for PvP.

 

[Dredd]

From my understanding the reason it set to 10hz on Destiny is not exactly last gen as most console FPS have been 32hz for a long time. It is instead the networking choices for PvE. The way I understand it patrol is instanced with a P2P host, that host can handle X players and X enemies per slice of the map, and when you go through those loading screen its trying to find another host that can fit you and your party. I could see this part of the game being more difficult at 30hz for example. However I wish PvP and PvE weren't so closely tided together.

A good reference point is MW2 which was only last gen and is pretty old by todays standard and it runs at 33hz tick rate so its not the PS3/Xbox 360 limiting it for PvP.

LOL, same **** years later, you can't balance a game when the base is created by crumbs, if you gave a team of 12 players the same weapons and perks everyone will get different results

P2P is saving bungie loads of money, not hurting sales. why drop P2P for dedicated servers to only to make a small percentage of player base happy?

loads of decent FPS games on market much better then destiny (can't think of worst PVP game). less you need loot to enjoy a game

so funny reading about weapon balance, just had to comment

 

[mid_gen]

Is it literally a setting on the server that says how often it should refresh. The difficult around it will depend on the networking stack bungie uses but for example overwatch just decided they wanted 60hz and it was done with some testing on the PTR.

From my understanding the reason it set to 10hz on Destiny is not exactly last gen as most console FPS have been 32hz for a long time. It is instead the networking choices for PvE. The way I understand it patrol is instanced with a P2P host, that host can handle X players and X enemies per slice of the map, and when you go through those loading screen its trying to find another host that can fit you and your party. I could see this part of the game being more difficult at 30hz for example. However I wish PvP and PvE weren't so closely tided together.

A good reference point is MW2 which was only last gen and is pretty old by todays standard and it runs at 33hz tick rate so its not the PS3/Xbox 360 limiting it for PvP.

Totally depends on the implementation. Overwatch was always built to be a 60fps competitive PvP game, so dedicated servers, no legacy consoles, no real PvE concerns to worry about.

Destiny is primarily PvE, and the whole engine is built around that P2P networking model. The low tick rate will have been chosen to give the overall best game experience for all players. What *really* matters in Destiny is that when you have the crosshair on an NPC's crit spot and you pull the trigger, it hits crit....and it does, always....but the timing is sacrificed to make sure that the core aim->shoot->hit mechanics work.

All the players in a Destiny game are seeing a slightly different view of the world....with all the updates coming in at different times to and from different clients. Then it's doing a lot of expensive synchronisation work to come up with a consolidated game state that satisfies the primary objective - client authority. There'll be all kind of mad stuff going on in there. Say two people are firing at an ultra's crit spot plink, plink, plink, plink, on one client that mob has been finished off by player 1 and firefly has proc'ed so it goes boom, but it wasn't dead yet on player 2 and he just proc'ed Triple Tap on the bullet that according to player 1 hit nothing because the mob was already dead. In this case it probably says OK I'll proc both perks, so the ultra goes bang from firefly and p2 get's his extra round even though in the consolidated reality it didn't hit anything.

Anyway it makes your brain melt this networking stuff. Upping the tickrate ups all this synchronisation stuff that has to happen. It's quite likely that upping tickrate would just get the whole game in an unstable desynced mess that never recovers if you have one dodgy connection.

TLDR; Destiny prioritises client authority hit detection over all else. It's why the gunplay is nice and tight, but the timing suuuuuucks.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

It's not just a case of increasing the 'tickrate' option on the server though. Would be nice if it was that simple! Last-gen consoles would have died on their ass handling higher rate synchronisation apart from anything.

Don't get me wrong, dedicated servers and a higher tickrate would be nice, but it's not 'just' something they can flip a switch to do. And the economics have to add up.

Never said it was that easy, but my point was that better netcode and server archetecture should be getting designed into games so they support higher tick rate and can offer a better online experience. Unless you are telling me it simply isn't possible on a PS4 / XB1?

The publishers make untold millions out of games these days and to me, if you release a game with MP content you should have the decency to provide it with decent servers and not fob everyone off with ****** P2P, particularly when your game has a premium price tag and you are selling circa 25 million copies.

 

[Fallen god]

There'll be all kind of mad stuff going on in there. Say two people are firing at an ultra's crit spot plink, plink, plink, plink, on one client that mob has been finished off by player 1 and firefly has proc'ed so it goes boom, but it wasn't dead yet on player 2 and he just proc'ed Triple Tap on the bullet that according to player 1 hit nothing because the mob was already dead. In this case it probably says OK I'll proc both perks, so the ultra goes bang from firefly and p2 get's his extra round even though in the consolidated reality it didn't hit anything..

Doesn't this improve with a higher tick rate. If my understanding is correct the tick rate will define the window for an action to happen. Currently it takes 100ms for that final bullet to land meaning its much more likely that multiply players have landed that shoot. However it was at a higher tick rate then that window reduces meaning the chance of the same issue happening is also lower.

And yes I get your point that PvE is the focus, however it seems again and again due to this either a PvP nerf messes up PvE, or PvE choices limit PVP. Might be better to start separating some of this stuff apart abit.

 

[mid_gen]

Yes upping the tickrate should mean that the different world states that exist on each client are more in-sync, but it's always going to mean more cycles spent working out the synchronisation. I'm assuming there's a whole bunch of pretty smart prediction code going on as well.

One thing you don't actually see a lot of in Destiny is rubber-banding (the odd dodgy red-bar in crucible aside). The game does a really nice job of hiding all the sync stuff....when that guy shotguns you two seconds after you shotgunned him it'll all be nice and smooth, like nothing weird ever happened

 

[mid_gen]

Never said it was that easy, but my point was that better netcode and server archetecture should be getting designed into games so they support higher tick rate and can offer a better online experience. Unless you are telling me it simply isn't possible on a PS4 / XB1?

The publishers make untold millions out of games these days and to me, if you release a game with MP content you should have the decency to provide it with decent servers and not fob everyone off with ****** P2P, particularly when your game has a premium price tag and you are selling circa 25 million copies.

Activision. Dedicated servers or not is just a question of numbers. Destiny was a new IP and launching a new AAA IP is a huge financial-risk. The provision of dedicated servers would be a big chunk of extra risk....whole lotta money involved in supporting a back-end globally at that kind of scale.

Now that Destiny has been firmly established as a successful IP and barring any colossal screw ups, Destiny 2 will be a big financial success.......you have to hope the bean counters cough up the beans for dedicated servers.

 

[Fallen god]

From strictly coding side isn't it a lot more work to switch to servers now meaning it costs a lot off money too. Its all complex and has a lot of pros and cons.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

no the license on disk based copies is present on the disc. You can always re-install your license if you have the disc.

Delete the lot and it should let you buy I reckon.

Plus all your destiny characters are stored on bungie servers, so you won't lose anything.

OK thanks, I will give it a try later and let you know.

So i have tried to delete destiny TTK from my PS4. It says please wait and does its thing. But TTK is still listed in my library. It isnt installed but is available for download.

I still cant buy the destiny collection as I already own TTK.

Really dont know where to go from here

 

[mid_gen]

Well by the little snippets we heard about Destiny 1 the engine is a mess (tales of the level design pipeline). I get why they made the decisions they did at the time though.

I would *hope* that with Destiny being such a success, Bungie have a mandate for Destiny 2. Get stuck in and do a complete refresh, PC support, dedicated servers, higher tick rates, bigger open worlds, more players per instance.