*** The Official Destiny Thread (now includes 2.0 and TTK) ***

Don't agree on this analagy

The Raid is a fixed entity. You will always face the same raid boss with the same mechanics. With Atheon you will always have to go into the past / future words and detroy the oracles to be able to go through the vex time gate back to the rest of your time team and survive. This will then grant you times vengeance and enable you to pile damage on Atheon.

Likewise the templar will always have to have his sheild taken by using the same amount of force before guardians open and fire on him.

Trials is not fixed at all because its PVP. Sometimes you can go 9-0 flawless relatively easy because you come up against a sucession of opponents of equal or less skill than you. Equally you might lose 5 on the trot after facing 5 teams on the run who are all considerably better than you.

Both are part of the same end game content, but with completely different experiences because the match making is random.

So, in a nutshell, because you're struggling to beat this part of the game, you think it's not fair and therefore the loot should be easier to obtain? This mentality speaks volumes about the fundamental problems with Destiny and the community.
 
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Don't agree on this analagy

The Raid is a fixed entity.

Trials is not fixed at all because its PVP. Sometimes you can go 9-0 flawless relatively easy because you come up against a succession of opponents of equal or less skill than you. Equally you might lose 5 on the trot after facing 5 teams on the run who are all considerably better than you.

Both are part of the same end game content, but with completely different experiences because the match making is random.

Fair enough, but my point was not about the "fixed" entity, it was about the preparation. Yes, raid mechanics are fixed, but you still need to learn how to play the raid. You need suitable gear/weapons, to communicate well, to use the right strategies etc. This is the same for Trials, obviously with the added randomness of the teams you come up against.

As stated, IMO a tiered system would be better. However, at the moment, you know what you sign up for. Its not forced, there are other ways to 34. But if you want the rewards, its not something you can just Gjallarhorn your way to.

Saying that someone's PvP skill or map knowledge etc shouldn't matter and that they should be able stroll in and grab the exotic emblem etc is not a logical argument.
 
So, in a nutshell, because you're struggling to beat this part of the game, you think it's not fair and therefore the loot should be easier to obtain? This mentality speaks volumes about the fundamental problems with Destiny and the community.

lets get this straight, you're not beating the game, you're beating your fellow opponents.

This is a player vs player competition, so you beat your opponents. In a pool tournament you beat your opponent, not the game of pool.

With regards the loot, I've done quite well so far. I've got 3 pieces of armor, 3 weapons, the class item and the shader. Given the right map and the right group, I'll get to the lighthouse, and do so without paying to be carried there as some people have done ! My issue here is not that I'm struggling to get the loot.

The issue here is that in most competitions where you play against other teams, there is some form of ladder or skill base match making to ensure you play against players of somewhat equal skill. You can argue that as this is the "end game" PVP content, there is no place for those with less skill. You win the premiership, or nothing. There is no championship, or Division 1 or 2 title to be won in the trials of osiris.

These people will argue that the scrubs not good enough to go 9-0 in trials should play crucible. Which is a bit like arguing that if you're not good enough for the premiership, you should go play with the kids in the park. Iron banner is like playing with other adults in the park. There's not really anything in between.

Destiny is in a unique situation here, because its very much a gear based game, like an MMO. Your gear isn't all that matters, but it will make it easier or difficult if you have the wrong gear. Equally choosing gear that you have, that others can't get that will give you the edge, is perfectly fine in destiny and goes against the whole cornerstone of normal FPS games like COD or CS where competitive games are based upon everybody having the same weapons.

But if you look at the other online PVP competitions outside of the FPS area, these usually have skill based match making (ie league of legends) but destiny has none.

The issue that I see it, is that trials is destructive to the community. Those that are issuing the beat downs to the other players, love it and think its the best thing ever. Those receiving the beatings will just stop playing and give up. Meaning that ultimately, not very many will be left playing trials meaning it only serves the top 1 % of PVP players.

To be specific, Destiny has some 16 million players, of which 188,000 got to mercury on the first weekend. That's the top 1.175 % of players.

By comparison the level 35 prison of elders was defeated by 900,000 in the first 3 days. So around 5 x the completion rate given similar 3 day time frames on the opening week. I would make comparison to the crotas end hard mode completion, but can't find any stats. I can find vault of glass, but these seem unfair since the vault was openend at a point when most weren't high enough level to attempt it, and the player base was much smaller making the % comparisons unfair.
 
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So, in a nutshell, because you're struggling to beat this part of the game, you think it's not fair and therefore the loot should be easier to obtain? This mentality speaks volumes about the fundamental problems with Destiny and the community.

No, the problem is that the current setup in Trials makes it inaccessible to rookie players and a frustratingly random experience. You might get matched with a bunch of crap teams and get a pretty easy ride to Mercury, or you might get matched with a bunch of full-time 'pros' that beat you down mercilessly.

The concept is good....it just needs a ranking system, you know, like every single other competitive PvP game.
 
I think they (Bungie) want the lighthouse to be hard to reach though, like an exclusive club you need to prove yourself to get there or something. I imagine it's working just as they planned (minus all the disconnect cheaters, glitches etc), I doubt they want everyone to get the rewards available there right off the bat.

I didn't think I'd manage to get there myself, some very tough matches. Getting that flawless card pop up after the last game was a better feeling than killing atheon or crota for the first time.

There should probably be some sort of skill based matching involved, if it just makes sure you don't get matched against people 100x your skill level, but then again it is the top end PVP content so it shouldn't really be easy to get there.

Maybe if someone has gone flawless on a character, then they shouldn't be matched up against those that haven't, then just have that reset with everything else.

There already is some tier based rewards, so if you don't get the lighthouse, you can still get a lot of decent loot from playing it. Random drops in matches and the reward packages. The lighthouse is just the top reward for going flawless. It does look very pretty though haha.
 
Yup I think the point is - I would rather face off 9 games against equal players and use teamwork, and skill to best them.

As it stands, I would even argue that the 9-0 is easier to obtain, because you can simply repeat until you get an easy run. I'm sure if i'd tried more than 5 times I'd have done that already.

Of the 2x 8-0s i got and the 9-2, 4-5 of the matches were a complete cake-walk each time. A couple were harder but still overall straightforward wins.

It'd actually be more challenging to get 9-0 with a skill based match making system in place. Because every match could go either way and it's about who is best on the day.

It's harder, but also gives everyone a chance if they perform well.

That's what I'd like


and hell, I got Venom in who has done it a few times but you had to go and make a right hash of the 9th round didn't you, haha. You're sabotage will never be forgotten, it's now etched into the very fabric of time - daaaaammn yoooouu!!
 
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No, the problem is that the current setup in Trials makes it inaccessible to rookie players and a frustratingly random experience. You might get matched with a bunch of crap teams and get a pretty easy ride to Mercury, or you might get matched with a bunch of full-time 'pros' that beat you down mercilessly.

The concept is good....it just needs a ranking system, you know, like every single other competitive PvP game.

No, the problem is very simple, terrible PvP players are being crushed by good PvP players and then complaining about it. Simple solution, don't play Trials of Osiris. It is designed to be the most competitive variant of PvP, if you're not good enough, don't play it. You don't see people entering ESWC, IEM etc and then complaining when they get stomped by top players? It doesn't make any logical sense. You enter Trials knowing exactly what it is and then seemingly complain when you get beat. There is absolutely nothing random about it.

"The problem is that the current setup in Trials makes it inaccessible to rookie players" - exactly, rookie players. So basically what you're saying is, Trials isn't fair/inaccessible/etc because the poor PvP players don't get a share of the loot designed for good PvP players?

I agree, there should be some form of ranking system, similar to that of Halo 3. But at the moment, if you're being crushed by good players, either go practice or don't complain about it.

Apologies if this comes across as a rant directed at you, I'm merely voicing my concerns about the game to everyone :)
 
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I think the ToO stuff is tough. Firstly a ranking system would need a lot of work so that it can't be cheated. What would the rank be based on, the average of a team PVP skills, which could lead to a 1% player carrying noobs and steam rolling teams. Or the best players ranking maybe, but could mean a group of friends that are playing honestly with 1 player better then the rest could get steam rolled too.

Also comparing things to PVE content is just wrong, firstly PVP content is fun cause its random, once you learn how to play a raid for example there is nothing exciting or fun about it, its just a boring grind. With randomness also comes fun, sure when you get completely wrecked its annoying, but you learn and grow, and its never the same exact thing. I think ToO is the most exciting things about Destiny right now, and I'm not great at PVP yet, and I've gone 9-0 once thus far.
 
It'd actually be more challenging to get 9-0 with a skill based match making system in place. Because every match could go either way and it's about who is best on the day.

How do you estimate someones skill, KDs is meaningless, if you play against great players you KD won't be amazing, but you could easily be the best destiny player ever. You can't go by matches won cause you could have been carried every single match. I think its a very difficult problem.
 
How do you estimate someones skill, KDs is meaningless, if you play against great players you KD won't be amazing, but you could easily be the best destiny player ever. You can't go by matches won cause you could have been carried every single match. I think its a very difficult problem.

you do what all the other games do and come up with a system. You don't base it upon one metric.

Its not rocket science and is common place in other games. Look at how CS:GO works for example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=312582297

The CS:GO system would transfer across nicely since each game of elimination has up 9 rounds that can be used to calculate your points under the system, just like CS:GO has multiple rounds in a single game.
 
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How do you estimate someones skill, KDs is meaningless, if you play against great players you KD won't be amazing, but you could easily be the best destiny player ever. You can't go by matches won cause you could have been carried every single match. I think its a very difficult problem.

Bungie has been ranking players for a long time and Destiny is no different. They are collecting huge amounts of data on users all the time, some of which is visible through destinytracker.com. They know who is good and who isn't. They just made a conscious decision not to display ranks in the game.

When you say KD is meaningless, do you mean it's actually a very important metric but should not be the sole consideration of a ranking algorithm? If that's accurate then Bungie are 4 steps ahead of you.
 
you do what all the other games do and come up with a system. You don't base it upon one metric.

Its not rocket science and is common place in other games. Look at how CS:GO works for example:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=312582297

The CS:GO system would transfer across nicely since each game of elimination has up 9 rounds that can be used to calculate your points under the system, just like CS:GO has multiple rounds in a single game.

Need too read this, but it seems like it covers most things.

When you say KD is meaningless, do you mean it's actually a very important metric but should not be the sole consideration of a ranking algorithm? If that's accurate then Bungie are 4 steps ahead of you.

No i mean it is almost completely meaningless to ones skill, if for example I'm a 1% ranked player, but play again other 1% ranked players only my kd could easily be 1.x, compare to a 1% ranked player that only plays public matches. Unless you then want to check every single kill/death. It would be difficult to actual figure out if someone is very good but just got killed by someone very good, compared to someone sucking and getting killed by someone very good.

Would death/kills be ranked based who killed you e.g. someone better kills you its worth less? Or what. I don't see a good way to include KDs in any sort of ranking since it can be so heavily skewed by so many things.
 
No i mean it is almost completely meaningless to ones skill, if for example I'm a 1% ranked player, but play again other 1% ranked players only my kd could easily be 1.x, compare to a 1% ranked player that only plays public matches. Unless you then want to check every single kill/death. It would be difficult to actual figure out if someone is very good but just got killed by someone very good, compared to someone sucking and getting killed by someone very good.

Would death/kills be ranked based who killed you e.g. someone better kills you its worth less? Or what. I don't see a good way to include KDs in any sort of ranking since it can be so heavily skewed by so many things.

Its not meaningless, its just not your only metric.

If in a match made game you go 20 kills 0 deaths then you are obviously not against equal skill since the odds of you wining every single encounter in a match are very slim.

Keep upping your placement and you'll find you come up against opponents where no matter what map knowledge or gun you have, you'll find players with similar guns and map knowledge to mitigate that advantage and you start dieing more.

Its only really meaningless when talking about the completely random crucible. When taken in context of a proper skill based system, the algorithms will know the probability of getting that type of score, and they know if you beat those odds by a considerable margin, you are likely ranked too low.
 
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How skill based are crucible matches in destiny right now? I play mostly alone but Ive gotten matches ranging from full fire teams of really good players, to matches where no one was over lv20 and didn't even know where to get heavy ammo from, or what heavy ammo was. I've read that they try, but I've never felt like I've almost never been placed against players within my skill range, this is more evident in FFA mode where I've had times where everyone expect me was below Lv10.
 
theirs no skill element to match making currently.

Its just random apart from some basic connection based stuff to try and stop you playing against americans etc..

This is why your experience in crucible will vary so much.
 
In regular crucible I believe the matchmaking will try and match people up as equal as it can, taking into account full numbers in fire teams as well. Obviously it cant always get a perfect match so I imagine it has some fallbacks in place for stuff it can let go of if nothing is found.

Trials is all connection based, whitch is good and from all the matches I've played works perfectly, but then you do get matched with people that might walk all over you 5-0 before you've even had a chance to think of what to do. Good and bad at the same time!
 
I thought the guaranteed key for doing Petra bounties was per character? Just done a bounty on my warlock and got a key but did one on my hunter and didn't. So is it once per player rather than once per character?
 
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