The Police are racist

[Visage]

Whether it is racism or based on past experience is neither here nor there and has nothing to do with my argument. The fact is that there are communities here who do not trust the police and they need to be policed. If a diverse force makes policing them more efficient and effective then we need a more diverse force.

I agree. In an ideal world, all people would react in exactly the same way to a police officer, regardless of any difference in their ethnic origins.

Unfortunately we dont live in an ideal world. IMO positive discrimination is an imperfect solution to an imperfect world.

I'd rather it wasnt needed, but if it is effective in improving crime detection, prevention and deterrence then I think we have to be pragmatic and allow it, while simultaneously working to remove the prejudice (predominantly from non-white communities, it has to be said) that makes it necessary.

 

[VIRII]

Hello, perhaps we should start again, because you appear to be ignoring the parts of my post that you want to.

Lets pretend that you were walking home from the pub, across Hyde Park in Leeds and you get brutally ass raped by six 7 foot tall 200 pound black men. You decide to report it and you are assigned an officer to interview you and record as much detail as possible.

Would you prefer option a) a caucasian bloke from sarf London, b) a 7 foot 200 pound black man with a Leeds accent, c) a hindi woman from Bradford or d) some bird who looks like Claudia Schiffer did 10 years ago.

Bear in mind that you've just been relentlessly buggered senseless and you might be a little bit emotionally fragile and reluctant to open up.

Obviously I'm exagerrating, because you don't seem to understand simple descriptions, but this is the kind of situation that I'm say requires a need for sensitivity and knowledge about the victims and the perpetrators background and henve a need for the police to reflect the divesity of our country.

It's not a perfect world and in some areas there is a lack of integration so the police need to do everything they can to overcome that. Reinforcing historical stereotypes for a racist white only police force will not do that.

It wouldn't matter to me which one interviewed me, ideally the Claudia Schiffer lookalike of course but in reality it wouldn't matter a jot to me.
Why would the officers sex and race matter?

 

[VIRII]

What's it got to do with the law?? If a female muslim victim will give more information to a femaqle muslim officer, therefore making the chances of a successful arrest and conviction higher then surely that's a good thing. No?
This is about the effectiveness of a police force, not about treating criminals differently.

Why would a female muslim be more cooperative to another female muslim?
Why should we pander to her racist and sexist prejudice?

Whether it is racism or based on past experience is neither here nor there and has nothing to do with my argument. The fact is that there are communities here who do not trust the police and they need to be policed. If a diverse force makes policing them more efficient and effective then we need a more diverse force.

Then those communities need to sort themselves out not demand that perfectly decent white people get ignored for jobs in the force.
Racism has everything to do with your argument as you are suggesting that we pander to racists.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

It wouldn't matter to me which one interviewed me, ideally the Claudia Schiffer lookalike of course but in reality it wouldn't matter a jot to me.
Why would the officers sex and race matter?

You've either been sniffing glue or you are simply choosing to ignore the dynamics of victim psychology (and many other fairly obvious behavioural norms) for the sake of this discussion.

If you are not going to bother and just post contraditory statements for the sake of it then why bother?

 

[Van_Dammesque]

Lets pretend that you were walking home from the pub, across Hyde Park in Leeds and you get brutally ass raped by six 7 foot tall 200 pound black men. You decide to report it and you are assigned an officer to interview you and record as much detail as possible.

Would you prefer option a) a caucasian bloke from sarf London, b) a 7 foot 200 pound black man with a Leeds accent, c) a hindi woman from Bradford or d) some bird who looks like Claudia Schiffer did 10 years ago.

Bear in mind that you've just been relentlessly buggered senseless and you might be a little bit emotionally fragile and reluctant to open up.

you are simply choosing to ignore the dynamics of victim psychology

I think you are:
Case
a) Doesn't matter, I have been buggered up the arse. It is embarrassing anyway. I will tell the person because it is my best interests to get the information to police so they can arrest the rapist.

b) Doesn't matter, I have been buggered up the arse. It is embarrassing anyway. I will tell the person because it is my best interests to get the information to police so they can arrest the rapist.

c) Doesn't matter, I have been buggered up the arse. It is embarrassing anyway. I will tell the person because it is my best interests to get the information to police so they can arrest the rapist.

d) Doesn't matter, I have been buggered up the arse. It is embarrassing anyway. I will tell the person because it is my best interests to get the information to police so they can arrest the rapist.


Are you really suggesting that if you were raped you wouldn't tell the police what had happened AT ALL if the your ethnicity and gender did not exactly match the police officer interviewing you!?

EDIT: are there any cases you can show us that the person raped has not given evidence AT ALL because of the ethnicity of the PC?
(It may be uncomfortable to go the throug the details, i.e. recall the event, but this does not relate to ethnicity unless the person raped is racist.)

 

[Madwelsh]

I find it hilarious, I'm from Brum, and in certain areas there are petitions to stop xmas decorations from being put up because 'it is offensive' to islamics. I ask anyone on this thread, if you went to Iran or Saudi and tried opening up a church, see how far you'd get. You see in Britain, we like to cultivate this image that we are more socially developed, that we can accept all different cultures living together. It's a load of tosh, I can tell you now from my experiences, the whites are racist, but the racism exhibited between the asians and the blacks is far worse, and they both treat the whites with contempt. I personally treat everyone as I find them, I will admit that living in Brum has made me feel more racist than before, purely from my experiences, which I find quite dis-heartening.

What strikes me is that the majority seem to be marginalised, while the minorty seem to always get a better deal. I was in Malta this summer and they have a serious problem with immigrants. I was talking to a police officer I know, and he said they won't let mosques or any of that sort of thing, mainly because they believe in protecting their heritage and their traditions. What gets me is that if I moved to another country, I'd adapt to their customs, I certainly wouldn't expect the country to adapt to mine. Sorry if this appears a little racist, but I know that I reflect an increasingly large group of dis-spirited people, particularly those living within UK cities.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

Are you really suggesting that if you were raped you wouldn't tell the police what had happened AT ALL if the your ethnicity and gender did not exactly match the police officer interviewing you!?

No, not even close and I've taken every opportunity to state that this is just an influencing factor any community / victim interaction with the police, not the be all and end all.

Considering male rape is the most unreported crime there is in the UK then I feel that it does make a difference who you are talking to.

The same goes for female rape.

I don't think that the ethnicity or sex of the office will determin where the crime is reported or not, but I do feel that it will have an impact. The victim might simply want to report an assault when there is a sexual predator who could attack others.

The police already assign female officers to interview female rape victims because they know that the victims can relate better to those officers.

Similarly, people wishing to come forward and give information realting to crimes are more likely to do so if they feel they can speak to someone who understands their fears about speaking to the police.

VIRII said that the ethnic minorities need to sort themselves out. It's true, but they need to be convinced that engaging with the police is the right way to go about it. In the past the police have been racist and so it is equally down to them to mend community bridges.

 

[Iraklis F.C.]

things like these are unimaginable in my country. reject locals for some foreigners? thats unheard.

and i dont think it is necesserily bad

 

[VIRII]

You've either been sniffing glue or you are simply choosing to ignore the dynamics of victim psychology (and many other fairly obvious behavioural norms) for the sake of this discussion.

If you are not going to bother and just post contraditory statements for the sake of it then why bother?

I know nothing of victim psychology. I know that if someone commits a crime against me then I want the criminal arrested and charged and I couldn't care less who did it.
I would expect to get short shrift if I went to the police station and refused to deal with a woman or black officer. Rightly so.
I would expect that if I went into a high street store and demanded that a white person served me that I would get kicked out. Rightly so.
Why is colour so "understandably" important to people if they are NOT white and yet considered immaterial if they are white?

If you can explain your concept then I stand a chance of understanding it, but so far it is simply that it is OK for non whites to be racist and white officers should suffer as a result. I see no logic.

 

[VIRII]

No, not even close and I've taken every opportunity to state that this is just an influencing factor any community / victim interaction with the police, not the be all and end all.

Then it is not crucial enough to deny good white males the chance of a job that they want to do purely becuase they are the "wrong" sex and colour.

Considering male rape is the most unreported crime there is in the UK then I feel that it does make a difference who you are talking to.

Does it? So who would the victim be most likely to talk to?

The same goes for female rape.
I don't think that the ethnicity or sex of the office will determin where the crime is reported or not, but I do feel that it will have an impact. The victim might simply want to report an assault when there is a sexual predator who could attack others.

Right..... so a white guy won't admit to a black guy that he has been raped because the officer isn't white...... I don't think it'll make the slightest difference. I am amazed that the police recruitment policy should be so highly influenced by rape victims though, I thought gun crime was a problem?

The police already assign female officers to interview female rape victims because they know that the victims can relate better to those officers.

That is understandable seeing as a male has used his greater physical strength to rape a woman. But would a white woman not give the rape details to a muslim female........ again I don't think it would make any difference.

Similarly, people wishing to come forward and give information realting to crimes are more likely to do so if they feel they can speak to someone who understands their fears about speaking to the police.

Racists you mean? We need to pander to racists who refuse to talk to white people in Great Britain? I think not.

VIRII said that the ethnic minorities need to sort themselves out. It's true, but they need to be convinced that engaging with the police is the right way to go about it. In the past the police have been racist and so it is equally down to them to mend community bridges.

Two wrongs make a right do they? Perhaps their communities are the ones with the issues and it is they who have the work to do not the police.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I would expect to get short shrift if I went to the police station and refused to deal with a woman or black officer. Rightly so.

No-one said anything about anyone refusing to deal with an office of different sex or ethnicity, simply that it was and is easier to deal with people to whom you feel you can relate though cultural, ethnic and gender similarities.

Let's try a different tack:

Humans are naturally tribal. Everyone is, whether they choose to admit it to themselves or not and in most cases they prefer to associate with 'similar' people; when I look at my wedding photos I realise that out of 180 guests there was 1 black person and 1 oriental person, everyone else what white caucasian. Why?

I live in London and associate with numerous people of different ethic origins on a daily basis, I spent 8 years at university in a multi-ethnic / culture environment where mixing was extremely positively encouraged and yet just over 1% of the people invited to my wedding were non-white.

Personally I think that it's because I have very little in the way of shared cultural reference points with people from other cultures; we weren't raised the same way, we don't laugh at the same jokes, we don't follow the same sports, watch the same TV shows, listen to the same music, wear the same clothes, generally we have little in common. It's not deliberate racism, it's just that I enjoy the company of people who have similar cultural reference points to myself and I feel comfortable in their presence. After all, you don't go for a night out with people who don't make you laugh or you can't hold a conversation with (at least not on purpose). As a prime example of this in action; you can't understand what I'm saying in this thread because you don't know me, my cultural reference points and we have no shared semantics.

The reason the two people from miorities were at my wedding was because they had both been educated in public schools (boarding) and so they were more immersed in our culture and their likes / dislikes and behaviours were more compatible with my own.

Now apply this on a larger scale to minorities dealing with the police; it's easier and more confortable communicating if you have a shared cultural identity and shared semantics. Hence having a ethno-cultural diversity that matches that of the public will make it easier for the police to go about their business.

 

[Spie]

The race of a Police officer is irrelevant. Any other stance on police officers race is racist.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Now apply this on a larger scale to minorities dealing with the police; it's easier and more confortable communicating if you have a shared cultural identity and shared semantics. Hence having a ethno-cultural diversity that matches that of the public will make it easier for the police to go about their business.

Surely your argument also suggests that whites are best suited to deal with whites?

 

[Von Smallhausen]

The race of a Police officer is irrelevant. Any else is racist.

Granted I have just got out of bed after a banzai nightshift so my head isn't really in gear, but that doesn't make sense to me ?

 

[VIRII]

No-one said anything about anyone refusing to deal with an office of different sex or ethnicity, simply that it was and is easier to deal with people to whom you feel you can relate though cultural, ethnic and gender similarities.

Let's try a different tack:

Humans are naturally tribal. Everyone is, whether they choose to admit it to themselves or not and in most cases they prefer to associate with 'similar' people; when I look at my wedding photos I realise that out of 180 guests there was 1 black person and 1 oriental person, everyone else what white caucasian. Why?

I live in London and associate with numerous people of different ethic origins on a daily basis, I spent 8 years at university in a multi-ethnic / culture environment where mixing was extremely positively encouraged and yet just over 1% of the people invited to my wedding were non-white.

Personally I think that it's because I have very little in the way of shared cultural reference points with people from other cultures; we weren't raised the same way, we don't laugh at the same jokes, we don't follow the same sports, watch the same TV shows, listen to the same music, wear the same clothes, generally we have little in common. It's not deliberate racism, it's just that I enjoy the company of people who have similar cultural reference points to myself and I feel comfortable in their presence. After all, you don't go for a night out with people who don't make you laugh or you can't hold a conversation with (at least not on purpose). As a prime example of this in action; you can't understand what I'm saying in this thread because you don't know me, my cultural reference points and we have no shared semantics.

The reason the two people from miorities were at my wedding was because they had both been educated in public schools (boarding) and so they were more immersed in our culture and their likes / dislikes and behaviours were more compatible with my own.

Now apply this on a larger scale to minorities dealing with the police; it's easier and more confortable communicating if you have a shared cultural identity and shared semantics. Hence having a ethno-cultural diversity that matches that of the public will make it easier for the police to go about their business.

So you don't feel that multiculturalism works and feel that people naturally want to be with people most similar to themselves.
You feel that by putting people in situations (boarding school) where they have little choice but to adopt the group norm that they intergrate better.
So to improve the lack of intergration in the UK we should help encourage segregation by trying where possible to give a victim an officer of his or her own background......

You discuss tribalism and the reasons for non intergration and yet you seem to want to pander to it. This is the UK and if people are having problems being british, learning to look past their own skin colour and dropping their cultural prejudices then they shouldn't be here and we certainly shouldn't be encouraging it with this ridiculous positive discrimination.

If white people were suggesting that they only felt comfortable with white officers then there would be uproar and accusations of racism, yet when racist minorities complain we bend over backwards to help them remain segregated and fuel their racism with apologist nonsense.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

Surely your argument also suggests that whites are best suited to deal with whites?

Do you deny what I said about cultural reference points and shared semantics making communication easier?

I'm not advocating apartheid, simply stating that the ethnic / cultural make-up of the police should reflect that of society in order to aid communication and understanding.

 

[lordrobs]

This isn't 'PC gone mad', this is racism. Pure and simple.

Agreed.

Unfortunately its a fairly common occurance. I know of training schemes where white males have been regected dispite being the better applicants in order to fill quota's

 

[cleanbluesky]

Do you deny what I said about cultural reference points and shared semantics making communication easier?

I don't know, have I done anything to suggest that I am denying your comment? No.

I suggested that your theory also suggests that a white would be best suited to deal with a white victim.

It is not always possible to get 'racially appropriate' help when in a situation, so I am not sure that there is a great value in concentrating on ethnic recruitment (and rejecting appropriate applicants) when it seems that it may provide a small advantage.

If I were in trouble, the race of an officer who was helping me would be one of the last things on my mind.

 

[VIRII]

Do you deny what I said about cultural reference points and shared semantics making communication easier?

I'm not advocating apartheid, simply stating that the ethnic / cultural make-up of the police should reflect that of society in order to aid communication and understanding.

Your way will only lead to apartheid. Surely we should segregate schools by race too. After all it is better for all concerned that they don't have their education stunted by communications that aren't helped if there are not shared cultural references and shared semantics.
Best seperate shops and buses too. After all when non whites are forced to mix and deal with white people they aren't getting the best service possible, there is a lack of shared semantics that enable communication.

CBS are you ready to start that airline now

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

You discuss tribalism and the reasons for non intergration and yet you seem to want to pander to it. This is the UK and if people are having problems being british, learning to look past their own skin colour and dropping their cultural prejudices then they shouldn't be here and we certainly shouldn't be encouraging it with this ridiculous positive discrimination.

I prefer to see it as taking a pragmatic approach to issues facing this country rather then simply ignoring them and saying that everyone has to change to be like us, and ignoring the historic racism of the police.

Your defending a policy that simply doesn't work, regardless of whether it is correct in an ideal world where everyone can integrate. Exthic minorities are here and they are going to stay so you can either reflect them in the make up of services like the police in order to better engage with these poeple or you can ignore them, in which case they'll probably ignore you.