The potential new US president

Zbornak said:
I can't stop watching this.
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One day her welfare check won't show up in her mailbox. Her free cell phone will be disconnected. Her food stamp card won't swipe at the super market. Her section-8 free rent payments won't be sent to her landlord.

And now you know why Wal-mart started selling M4s.
 
I don't see being a Morman as being particularly worse than any other religion - yes its an obviously made up religion but then again so are all religions... just because the cult leaders who invented a particular religion lived a longer time ago doesn't give it any more legitimacy - most religious people are of a particular faith simply because one or more of their parents happened to be.

I'd be much more worried by someone from the church of Scientology getting in - I'd also say that a Muslim or Evangelical Christian would also be a bit concerning.

The reality is that, at the moment, a US Presidential candidate has to be religious in order to stand a chance of getting elected. Hopefully one day, as we progress/education standards increase, more people will see sense and give up the silly god delusions.
 
I actually have this walmrt flyer on my desk lol

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Jamsames said:
i hope your not using his mormon religion as an arguement against him, bit offensive that, got a mate who is mormon and is perfectly normal.

but yea even i can see that saying somthing like that is pretty dumb, its somthing my young brother would say
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It's bonkers, just because your friend might be "normal" despite it does not change that.
 
Naffa said:
Ridiculous. They're two of the most comparable religions, not least because the fraudulence of their conception is so blindingly obvious to those who have investigated their origins (in part because they are both so young). Both religions are essentially rackets, and their histories of nothing more than histories of successful con jobs.
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Way to use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing at all.

Anything to back up these claims?
 
elmarko1234 said:
Do you think this moron, I mean Mormon who thinks the earth is 4000 years old should be given any political power (or even a sharp soon for that matter?).
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It's not like a Christian has never been president/king/queen/pope/emperor etc etc before. :rolleyes:

Also Mormons don't believe that the world was created 4000 years ago, in fact they quite clearly state that they have no opinion on the matter and don't think its relevant to their beliefs.

"The scriptures do not say how old the earth is, and the Church has taken no official stand on this question. Nor does the Church consider it to be a central issue for salvation."


I do love all these people laying into Mormonism based on hearsay and the media.

I'm completely Agnostic, I've never been particularly religious, never gone to church or whatever, and neither did my parents, nor do I have any interest in religion as a whole.

My wife however is Mormon, and obviously I've met many many Mormons in my time, non fit into these stereotypes given.
 
Morbius said:
I think I started actively disliking him when he and his wife tried to baptise her dead atheist father into the Mormon church.
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it's a baptism by proxy, Mormons believe that if you chose not to accept Christ in this life you have the opportunity to in the afterlife provided you receive this baptism by proxy. Even then it's supposedly down to the deceased person to accept the baptism.

The best way I can describe the Mormon view of God, life and the after life is to compare it to a standardised test such as a GCSE. God is the person who sets the test.

God give you everything you need to pass the test, a body, agency and a concious, it's down to you to use those tools (like homework, practice tests, revision study) to pass the test, there are different grades you will receive at the end of it and depending on those grades you will receive a better afterlife sort of like passing all the exams will likely mean you get a better career as a result.

Even if you fail the test there are retakes. and if you missed a lesson (baptism) God's made it so that a Mormon can catch you up to speed.

There is a chance once you die that you may get baptised by proxy too, in fact Mormons believe that everyone* who has not accepted/heard of the gospel in this life will have to be to complete Gods work.

*as a disclaimer currently Mormons don't baptise those who died as a result of the holocaust as they have been asked to stop by the Jewish community. They may still baptise holocaust victims if a relative is a Mormon and is completing the work themselves though, not to sure on that one.
 
Theophany said:
Way to use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing at all.

Anything to back up these claims?
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Sure thing. I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I made a claim, only right to back it up. :) Let's see, to start with, Mormonism was founded by a known fraudster and charlatan, Scientology was founded by a crap science fiction writer. Both of those professions would put me on my guard, if said people claimed to be in possession of information unknown to the rest of the humanity. They're both very young religions, closer to history, and in the case of Scientology, modern.

As for the racket claim, well, Mormon's are required to give 10 per cent of the earnings to the Church (in reality, only about 40 per cent of their 14million members do). The church takes in roughly $7billion per year, and has assets of $35billion. What's the money used for? Well, preaching mainly. Building missionaries, more temples, and schools... And BYU. No hospitals, or anything that they can't use to preach.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/us-usa-politics-mormons-idUSBRE87B05W20120812

I won't go too deeply into why Scientology is so similar, but, in short... They coerce their members into donating large sums of money, and use it to build more churches, preach more, pay David Miscavige a massive salary, ad infinitum.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1202000.ece

They even brag about it. :p

But yes, Obama 2012.
 
Naffa said:
Sure thing. I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I made a claim, only right to back it up. :) Let's see, to start with, Mormonism was founded by a known fraudster and charlatan, Scientology was founded by a crap science fiction writer. Both of those professions would put me on my guard, if said people claimed to be in possession of information unknown to the rest of the humanity. They're both very young religions, closer to history, and in the case of Scientology, modern.

As for the racket claim, well, Mormon's are required to give 10 per cent of the earnings to the Church (in reality, only about 40 per cent of their 14million members do). The church takes in roughly $7billion per year, and has assets of $35billion. What's the money used for? Well, preaching mainly. Building missionaries, more temples, and schools... And BYU. No hospitals, or anything that they can't use to preach.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/us-usa-politics-mormons-idUSBRE87B05W20120812

I won't go too deeply into why Scientology is so similar, but, in short... They coerce their members into donating large sums of money, and use it to build more churches, preach more, pay David Miscavige a massive salary, ad infinitum.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1202000.ece

They even brag about it. :p

But yes, Obama 2012.
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I don't debate anything you've said. My understanding is that it is completely correct, in fact the very few Mormons I know wouldn't deny the practice of tithing in the LDS church. That being said, there is a big difference between ~40% of your church's 'membership' (correct word?) donating 10% for what they feel to be the greater good and using coercion tactics to extort your membership - though how much truth is in some of the Co$ horror stories I couldn't possibly comment.

I guess my point is that whilst it isn't difficult to say that the story of Joseph Smith and the church of LDS is phooey from an objective standpoint, the reality is that the overwhelming majority of Mormons are good people. Sure, they preach openly and do missionary work to try and convert people, but at the same time they are not manipulative or vicious about it.

My argument is an apologist one really. The story of Joseph Smith and the story of the Bible/Quran/Torah/whatever (when you actually read them, it's pretty bizarre) are all hokem. But the people who follow these religions tend to be good people because the actual story is not important, what is important is that they try to live their lives as decent human beings with empathy for their fellow man.

Scientologists? I don't think so. Trying to con people into your religion with disingenuous 'personality tests', extorting your followers for money, etc - not directly comparable. Age of the religion is irrelevant. By that metric all religions are silly compared to Judaism (and try telling that to anybody on the West Bank).
 
Theophany said:
I don't debate anything you've said. My understanding is that it is completely correct, in fact the very few Mormons I know wouldn't deny the practice of tithing in the LDS church. That being said, there is a big difference between ~40% of your church's 'membership' (correct word?) donating 10% for what they feel to be the greater good and using coercion tactics to extort your membership - though how much truth is in some of the Co$ horror stories I couldn't possibly comment.
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Surely if the people giving the money believe that it's being used for the greater good, that is the record of a successful con job?

I guess my point is that whilst it isn't difficult to say that the story of Joseph Smith and the church of LDS is phooey from an objective standpoint, the reality is that the overwhelming majority of Mormons are good people. Sure, they preach openly and do missionary work to try and convert people, but at the same time they are not manipulative or vicious about it.

My argument is an apologist one really. The story of Joseph Smith and the story of the Bible/Quran/Torah/whatever (when you actually read them, it's pretty bizarre) are all hokem. But the people who follow these religions tend to be good people because the actual story is not important, what is important is that they try to live their lives as decent human beings with empathy for their fellow man.
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Maybe I should have made a point that I don't consider Mormonism and Mormons to be one and the same. Though I do think that the majority of Mormons do believe that Joseph Smith Jr was instructed by Moroni to go and dig up gold tablets in upstate New York, and therefore are deluded, I wouldn't deny that many of them are decent people. Though, I have serious reservations about people like Mitt who were working as missionaries, preaching abroad, when the church was an officially racist organisation.

Scientologists? I don't think so. Trying to con people into your religion with disingenuous 'personality tests', extorting your followers for money, etc - not directly comparable. Age of the religion is irrelevant. By that metric all religions are silly compared to Judaism (and try telling that to anybody on the West Bank).
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I don't think the age is irrelevant, though I do think that the claims made by all are equally ridiculous. The fact that Mormonism is so much more contemporary, means that it doesn't have this cloak of mystery woven out of a few thousand years, to help people overlook the absence of evidence.

As for your point on Scientology, I said that both were records of successful con jobs, and I stand by said point in both cases.

And on a side note, I went to see the Book of Mormon on Broadway... It was great. :D
 
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